From the linked PDF:

Give the officers my ID?
If the ICE officer demands your ID, only show a driver’s license or another ID issued from the U.S. government. DON’T give the officer any false or foreign documents such as a passport, consular ID, or an expired visa.

In NY, the DRIVER must show any officer a driver’s license. If you are the PASSENGER, you do NOT have to show the officer an ID or give any personal information, including your name, address, or place of birth.

This seems off.

My understanding: in the US, nationals need not carry ID (while immigrants must carry their docs). Exceptionally, if you are driving a car, then the state requires you to carry your driver’s license. The DL is the property of the state. The fed does not issue driver’s licenses.

There is no such thing as a US federal driver’s license. The quote above refers to “ID issued from the U.S. government,” that would be a passport. A passport is not going to be carried daily inside the issuing country.

Traffic enforcement is not in the jurisdiction of federal ICE agents, is it? Can they really demand your driver’s license under this kind of false pretense of ensuring that drivers are permitted to drive when in fact the real reason they want to see the DL is to snoop on citizenship?

There are some interstate highways that traverse state borders. Does it make a difference whether or not someone is driving on one?

And what about cyclists? If you are cycling and happen incidentally to be carrying a driver’s license (which is not needed to cycle), must you produce it on demand?

It’s bizarre how that doc singles out New York. How does it differ from other states?

what the ACLU says

The ACLU has some advice:

https://www.acluva.org/know-your-rights/stopped-by-police-or-ice/

This is also a bit imprecise. Of course drivers must show their DL to “police”, but what about ICE? They just leave that up in the air.

Updated title

The first responder erroneously thought this thread was to seek advice. My title was admitedly ambiguous. In !law_us@lemmy.sdf.org, the purpose is chatter about law, not really about order.

Should ACLU’s official advice for dealing with ICE agents be “do whatever you want”? Probably not.

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[–] 7 points 9 months ago (4 children)

"Am I being detained? Am I free to go?"

If you are being detained, express your right to request a lawyer, and then STFU.

If you are free to go, STFU and GTFO.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Remember to say the magic words:

    "I am invoking my right to an attorney"

    You don't wanna end up with a lawyer dog

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Of course it's a state like Louisiana. Man, I wish "what goes around, comes around" could somehow be made an effective & near immediate universal reality - the world would be sooo much better for it.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago

    If you read the article and look at the statements, he doesn't actually ever ask for a lawyer (which was the prosecutions argument). He posits he should get a lawyer if they believe he did it, but didn't actually request a lawyer directly. The lawyer dog element wasn't actually relevant to the actual legal arguments being made, if I read the article correctly.

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Show them what you want, or don’t. They will do whatever they want. Please understand there is not a magic ticket to get them to leave yo alone. They are not constrained by laws, they face no repercussions and they hate anyone not maga

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Show them what you want, or don’t. They will do whatever they want.

    This is not useful and it does not answer the question. What someone “wants” to disclose of course depends on legal effects they can expect from the decision.

    Please understand there is not a magic ticket to get them to leave yo alone.

    Please understand that being left alone is not the goal of privacy seekers and activists. It’s the goal of the rest. Activists have higher priorities.

    They are not constrained by laws, they face no repercussions and they hate anyone not maga

    Nonsense. If you refuse to cooperate to the extent required by law, the court hearing and prior negotiations will play out vastly different for you.

    Your contempt for knowing your rights is best kept to yourself. You don’t do anyone favors by advocating ignorance of rights.

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  • 5 comments in c/minnesota@midwest.social view that post
    [–] 8 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Aww, sweety, there is no law any more 😔

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Aww, sweety, don’t you know written statutes, compliance, and enforcement are all different things?

    When this disappears, you can tell all your friends at school that there is “no law any more[sic]” (just like your parent told you), and become popular at your school. Until then, please run along and play with your friends. This conversation is for grown ups.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I'm questioning if even showing your DL to lawless thugs like ICE is a good idea. They could just take it from you, and then you'd have no ID.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Whether it’s a good idea to present the DL to ICE depends on whether there is a legal obligation to do so -- hence the question about jurisdiction.

    If you legally must present a state DL on-demand to feds, then it’s a question of consequences. Refusing to present your DL to a local cop who pulls you over could probably lead to legit confiscation (effectively, loss of driving privs). If the feds take your DL and it’s unlawful, then the confiscation has no legal effect because you are still licensed to drive. You would just have the inconvenience of reporting a stolen ID to the DMV and waiting for a replacement.

    One legal theory I would like answered is if you can refuse the DL to feds, then would they have to call a local cop to demand your DL by proxy in the scenario of following a legal procedure? This could be interesting because local cops may not be happy to respond to such calls.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    The usual advice for non-white people is to carry a copy of your passport, and make are the original is somewhere safe. They might call it fake and kidnap you anyway, but sometimes they'll look you up, see you're a citizen, and leave you alone.

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