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[–] 5 points 9 months ago

I think the full text of the report regarding this is enlightening:

The survey also took Americans’ temperature about about capitalism, socialism, and even communism. Most Americans have favorable views of capitalism (59 percent) and unfavorable views of socialism (57 percent) and especially communism (86 percent).

Some groups stand out with greater support for socialism than capitalism. For instance, more Democrats have positive views of socialism (67 percent) than capitalism (50 percent). Strong liberals lead the way with 82 percent having favorable views of socialism compared to 28 percent who feel positive toward capitalism. Among Americans under 30, 62 percent feel favorable toward socialism, and 50 percent feel favorable toward capitalism.

Only 14 percent of Americans have favorable views of communism, while 86 percent have unfavorable views. Some groups like communism more than others. The percentages of Americans who feel favorable toward communism are as follows:

34 percent under 30.

29 percent of strong liberals.

28 percent of residents in big cities.

26 percent of African Americans.

I pasted the whole thing here because there's a lot of interesting nuggets in there. On the surface, 59% having a favorable view of capitalism and 86% viewing communism unfavorably seems bad. But when you get into the details, I think it's very positive for us. Fully 98% of age 65+ folks see communism unfavorably; the results are incredibly skewed by age (which I know, it's not a substitute for class but it's useful from an informational standpoint). That point about Democrats not just seeing socialism more favorably than capitalism but seeing it that way by a huge margin is encouraging to me. As material conditions worsen I think those people will be the easiest to push in our direction - I know we have issues with Democratic voters, but I think it's reasonable to assume a very large number of them would be more inclined to support socialism or communism over outright fascism under certain conditions. Lastly, those points about big city residents and African Americans. Those results are not split by age. So given the shape of the curve of views of communism, I think it's reasonable two assume that younger people in those two age groups view communism favorably by well over 34%.

I appreciate that Cato asked about communism and not just socialism. Having a favorable view of socialism will include a lot of people who just like AOC and universal healthcare. Not that those are bad things in themselves, but saying you like communism is much less ambiguous.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    The word communism gets thrown around too much, especially in politics. Literally, anything better than capitalism should be the new norm. That should be what they ask in any kind of polling. Everybody knows that the word communism has been thrown around for decades as synonymous for enemy. The ignorant will continue to equate it as such. The framing for it should be, "how do we get away from capitalism because here are all the plenty proven reasons we know it doesn't work". Yada yada yada

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    As communists, we want communism. It's better for us to break the club of anticommunism than think we can avoid it by hiding the label. In doing so, in the equation "communism = Actually Existing Socialism = bad" we should break the second leg, defending existing socialism and engaging honestly. Rather than let fascists beat us anyways as we continue to dream of an ever-more perfect world that will never exist as long as we don't roll our sleeves up and build it, running into the same struggles socialism in real life has already been met with in the process and marring their "perfect" image.

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  • [+] 1 point 9 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    Yep, and if trends continue tomorrow even more will.

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  • [+] -9 points 9 months ago (30 children)

    As long as it's not redfash bs. Actual communism would be great. Stateless, classless, moneyless society built on egalitarianism and scientific progress for all.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago

    No socialist project has made it to communism, because socialism has never been global, nor has all of production and distribution been collectivized. Instead, the socialism that has existed has managed to bring remarkable results in uplifting the lives of the working classes but not yet made it to a stateless, classless, moneyless society.

    Socialism and fascism are diametric opposites, in socialist countries the working classes control the state and public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, while in fascist states the capitalists control the state and private ownership is principle.

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  • [+] -10 points 9 months ago (27 children)

    Utopian dream. Wouldnt work for one day.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (26 children)
  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (25 children)

    Communism? What would the motivational indicator be as human beings, to evolve, to create better/bigger things? I highly doubt the internet would had been created in sovjet russia.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (21 children)

    Motivation for innovation is the same as it always has been, to improve daily living and satisfy hunan curiosity. These have existed before capitalism and also existed in the soviet union. The USSR was actually quite impressive when it comes to scientific achievement, going from semi-feudalism to space in half a century.

    Where are you getting your ideas about communism from?

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  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (20 children)

    From litterally every bad communistic country that has been: Sovjet Russia, Cuba, etc. Not hard to find. I am living in a socialist country, not that far away from communism. My grandfather lived to experience communism. It is not as nice as you guys think it is. It is a Utopia, where the powerful, gets all the good stuff, and will do everything in there hand, to make sure no one gets a dime, more than everyone else. (Rough police, wide survailance, etc.) It always ends up with NO FREEDOM. Which I am widely against. There is no proof in the world, that communism works what so ever.

    I am not saying capitalsm does neither. That is why liberal socialism is a thing. That works. (scandinavia)

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (13 children)

    The USSR, Cuba, PRC, etc. have all been tremendous improvements on what came before, and remarlably progressive movements. Key life metrics like life expectancy, education, housing rates, literacy rates, and more skyrocketed in these countries. I don't know where you live, but unless you live in China, Vitenam, the DPRK, Cuba, Laos, Venezuela, or even Nicaragua, you certainly don't live in socialism.

    Secondly, "liberal socialism" isn't a thing. You're referring to social democracy, ie capitalism with safety nets, and it doesn't work because it relies on imperialism. Scandinavian countries participate in the imperialist system plundering the global south in order to subsidize their safety nets.

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  • [+] 2 points 9 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] -2 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    Those metrics improved worldwide during those time periods. It had more to do with the development of vaccines and antibiotics.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    Nope, had more to do with land reform, industrialization, and the mass social programs implemented by socialist governments, including literacy campaigns and expanded access to healthcare. Vaccines don't do much if you don't actually give them to people.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    So why did life expectancy go up so much around the rest of the world at the same time? Come on...

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (4 children)

    It didn't go up around the rest of the world evenly. Most countries that adopted socialism were extremely poor and underdeveloped beforehand, and having much better access to healthcare was massively impactful, same with employment, housing, and land. Life expectancy was highest in the imperialist countries like the US and Europe, they didn't have life expectancies in the 30s even pre-vaccine, at least not at the same time.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (3 children)

    Which countries are you thinking of? There aren't that many that still consider themselves socialist or communist. Cuba is really the only good example i can think of that fits what you are describing.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago* (2 children)

    The PRC, DPRK, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba are all socialist countries, with Venezuela and Nicaragua as budding proto-socialist projects. The former USSR was of course also socialist.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    Cuba and China are currently 56 and 57th in the world for life expectancy. Even if there was a time where their life expectancy improved faster than the rest of the world because of socialist policies, their edge has since then disappeared.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago

    When compared to peer countries, they consistently outperform, thanks to the capabilities of socialism. Cuba is under intense embargo, and the countries at the top are all imperialist, existing only due to plundering the global south.

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  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    SocioLiberal parties controlling the country, is what I call Liberal Socialism. Where we still donate 60% of our wealth for everyone to enjoy, while we still have some sort of free market, where politicians won't directly interfere.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago*

    You're talking about social democracy, capitalism with safety nets. Socialism is neither safety nets nor taxation, but a mode of production centering public ownership as the principle aspect of the economy. All of the European social democracies rely on imperialism to support these safety nets, they are closer to global parasites than a closed, self-sufficient system.

    Socialism, as found in the USSR, PRC, Cuba, etc has resulted in dramatic expansions in personal freedoms for the working classes.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago

    The urss has an impersive growth for 30 years. The fall was not because of communism but because of corruption and over militarization.

    Innovation is created by small companies than purchased by big cooperation ruled by profit only , it destroy competition this is a product of capitalism

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  • [+] 4 points 9 months ago (4 children)
  • [–] -3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    You wouldn't call the scandinavian welfare model liberal socialism? then I have to have a talk with my society teacher at my college.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    "Liberal socialism" is an oxymoron. Liberalism is the ideology supporting private property rights, socialism is a mode of production surrounding public ownership as the principle aspect of the economy. You're talking about social democracy, ie capitalism with safety nets, and this isn't socialism in the slightest.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    At the end of the day, all I am saying is. I don't believe in communism, there is no evidence it isn't just a dream, and never function in reality

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago

    Communism isn't a religion, it's a mode of production based on collectivized production and distribution. We know socialism works remarkably well, better than capitalist peers. There's no evidence that continuing on from socialism to communism will fail.

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  • [+] -14 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Communism is terrible

    So is capitalism

    You need some sort of middle ground

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Why is communism terrible, and why would a "middle ground" be better? What would that look like?

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  • [+] 0 points 9 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago

    Socialism is a mode of production where public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes in control of the state, and communism is a post-socialist, fully collectivized mode of production and distribution. Socialism has existed in the USSR, PRC, Cuba, etc. while communism has not yet been reached.

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  • 1 comment in c/socialism@midwest.social view that post
    [–] 4 points 9 months ago