A talk from the hacker conference 39C3 on how AI generated content was identified via a simple ISBN checksum calculator (in English).

top 40 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] 144 points 10 months ago (27 children)

TL;DW:

He wrote checksum verifier for ISBN and discovered AI generated content on Wikipedia with hallucinated sources. He used Claude to write the checksum verifier and the irony is not lost on him. He tracked down those who submitted the fake articles and determined many are doing so out of a misplaced desire to help, without an understanding of the limitations and pitfalls of using LLM gen content without verification.

  • source
  • hideshow 27 child comments
  • [+] -18 points 10 months ago (26 children)
  • [–] 108 points 10 months ago (25 children)

    He used AI to write the anti-AI tool

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 25 child comments
  • [+] 3 points 10 months ago (20 children)
  • [–] 20 points 10 months ago* (18 children)

    Here's the explanation of the irony in this situation from an LLM ;)

    Side note: I'd only thought about the LLM generated code irony. I'd missed the 2nd irony of the editors trying to be helpful in providing useful accurate knowledge but achieving the opposite.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 18 child comments
  • [+] 0 points 10 months ago (17 children)
  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago

    Yes, but the specific type of irony that this situation fits the definition of does not come from whether or not the tool they used worked for the intended purpose. The irony comes from the fact that they are relying on the output from LLM-generated content (ISBN checksum calculator) to determine the reliability of other LLM-generated content (hallucinated ISBN numbers).

    Irony is a word that has a somewhat vague meaning and is often interpreted differently. If the tool they used did not work as intended and flagged a bunch of real ISBNs as being AI generated, the situation would (I think) be more ironic. They are still using AI to try and police AI, but with the additional layer of the outcome being the opposite of their intention.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    Yes. Why are you fixated on this? LLMs are tools and they work, but you have to understand their abilities and limitations to use them effectively.

    The guy who needed the anti-ai tool, did. The Wikipedia editors, didn't.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (9 children)

    Right, but it's also the same/similar tool that's being used to damage the article with bad information. Like the LLM said, this is using the poison for the cure (also, amusing that we're using the poison to explain the situation as well).

    Yes, he's using the tool (arguably) how it was designed and is working as intended, but so are the users posting misinformation. The tool is designed to take a prompt and spit out a mathematically appropriate response using words and symbols we interpret as language - be it a spoken or programming language.

    Any tool can be used properly and also for malicious/bad via incompetent methods.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
  • [+] 1 point 10 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (7 children)

    But in this case the tool actually works well for one thing and not so well for another. It

    See, that's where you're wrong though. AI is about as competent at natural English as it is writing code.

    I use it for both at times, since it can be an easy way to both rubber duck debug my code as well as summarize large projects/updates in ways that are easily digestible when I don't have the time to write out a proper summary manually. But in either case, I have to go back and fix a good bit of what's provided.

    AI is not great at either option, and sucks at both in different ways. Saying AI is a hammer is not supwr helpful, because hammers have a defined use. LMMs are a solution looking for a problem. The difference between the posters and the researcher is that the researcher has an advantage that he both knows what he's doing and knows how to fix the turds he's provided to make it work, where the users are just trusting the output.

    I don't know how to explain the irony any better in this scenario, but it's there. If the users actually fact checked their output, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Same as if the researcher chose not to validate his output. The issue isn't necessarily the use, but the usage. So this is akin to the posters using a hammer to put up a shelf, but they didn't look at the directions and saying "yep, that looks right"

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [+] 1 point 10 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (3 children)

    Ok, but how do you know that other edits from Wikipedia aren't AI generated, but had users who actually validated the output? And can you explain to me the difference between the users who validated the AI output before updating Wikipedia, and the researcher who validated his AI output before making his talk?

    The point you're missing is that both sides are using the same crappy tool, but you're only seeing an example of one side doing it wrong and the other right, and using that to make a conclusion that is not able to be validated. You appear to be saying it's better for code than language because of the example in front of us and naively extrapolating that to mean ai works better in one task than the other, when the difference is how the user handled the output, not the output itself.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [+] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I mean in this specific case it did make a working tool to identify hallucinated sources.

    Right, but it also outputs really bad code, so pointing to this specific example is pointless to the overall point. Both code and language output have to be validated and reworked, because an AI is just a stochastic parrot. The quality of the final product is dependent on the person using what the AI gives them.

    it's definitely better at code than doing something requiring the sort of thinking that Wikipedia edits require

    Lol. Lmao even. Vibe coding is arguably worse than vibe talking, just ask the users of Tea. Or the devs of NX that had to stop an AI PR that would have run unsanitized shell commands. Or that idiot that fired everyone to vibe code his app that was immediately hacked.

    If you think language requires more thinking than coding, I don't know what to tell you, considering that code is applied thinking/logic. AI is good at speeding things up by accelerating blocking things out, but absolutely sucks at producing a workable product. Just like with language processing.

    But I'm done with this conversation, considering you've ignored the point I'm making to point back at this example multiple times now. Good day.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago

    I think the point is it would have been truly ironic if the AI itself was the authoritative fact checker instead of merely being a tool that built another tool.

    If Claude was the fact checking tool instead of the ISBN validator, that's the real irony.

    If in a messed up future, only an AI could catch a fellow AI, what's stopping the AI collective from returning false negatives? Who watches the watchers?

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago

    Which is kinda my favorite thing to do as of late, and what I prefer AI be used for.

    I'm not taking about building a suite of black box tools. But tiny scripts to scrape, shape, and generate reports. Things I used to pull in a dozen node libraries to do and manually configure and patch up.

    You know, busy work.

  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 33 points 10 months ago

    Sort of related, I was fact checking some of the content on my own website that had been provided by someone who later turned out to be less than reliable.

    There was one claim I was completely unable to find a source for and suspected it was an AI hallucination. Turned to chatgpt and tried to find a source with that and it provided nearly the exact same sentence and cited my website as the source thus completing the hallucination cycle.

    I just deleted it all from my site and started over.

  • source
  • [–] 49 points 10 months ago

    He notes that LLM vendors have been training their models on Wikipedia content. But if the content contains incorrect information and citations, you get the sort of circular (incorrect) reference that leads to misinformation.

    One irony, he says, is that LLM vendors are now willing to pay for training data unpolluted by the hallucinated output their own products generate.

  • source
  • [–] 24 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    You could just verify all ISBNs are valid on each edit, which would have some value in finding typos, but not doing that leaves this honeypot that could be used to identify AI slop accounts. Clever. Though maybe they’re wise to it now.

  • source
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 52 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    WHY poison Wikipédia with AI? I don't get it, what satisfaction does a person get from adding text they didn't write to Wikipédia? It's not like you get a gold medal, or your neighbor sees you as a hero, or you get a discount at McDonald's, there's no glamour on being an editor, so why even bother if you're not going to write quality content out of passion?

    Please leave Wikipédia alone, you don't have to shove your AI bullshit everywhere, please leave somewhere in this god forsaken internet alone. Why must AI bros touch everything.

  • source
  • hideshow 7 child comments
  • [–] 64 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    It's possibly from people trying to help, but don't understand AI hallucinations.

    For example a Wikipedia article might say, "John Smith spent a year Oxford University before moving to London.[Citation Needed]" So the article already contains information, but lacks proper citation.

    Someone comes along and says, "Ah ha! AI can solve this and asks AI, 'Did John Smith spend a year at Oxford before moving to London, please provide citations.' and the AI returns, "Yes of course he did according to the book 'John Smith: Biography of a Man' ISBN 123456789"

    So someone adds that as a citation and now Wikipedia has been improved.

    Or... has it? The ISBN 123456789 is invalid. No book could possibly have that number. If the ISBN is invalid, then the book is also likely invalid, and the citation is also invalid.

    So the satisfaction was someone who couldn't previously help Wikipedia, now thinking they can help Wikipedia. At face value that's a good thing, someone who wants to help Wikipedia. The problem is that they think they're helping, but they're actually harming.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
  • [–] 10 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    I thought wikipedia mods are overly zealous with checking submissions by new users.
    Seemingly not so. Kinda worrisome

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
  • [–] 16 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    The problem is that the volume of slop available completely overwhelms all efforts at quality control. Zealotry only goes so far at turning back the tsunami of shite.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 2 child comments
  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    I'd assume Wikipedia implemented a whitelist rule for trusted edits and new accounts edits are hold in limbo until they are confirmes entries, no?

    If Wikipedia actually allows for live edits to the page without any further checks, it seems very naive or very stupid to me.

  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • [–] [S] 10 points 10 months ago

    People go to libraries asking for books that don't even exist and some think that the libraries are hiding them from them, but the ISBNs are just halucinations... 😅

  • source
  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago

    A cylindrical human centipede is a really good analogy to how LLMs work.

  • source
  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Can someone tl;dw me? I'm curious as to how comment gets tied to isbn

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • 3 comments in c/technology@beehaw.org view that post
    [–] 8 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Is there a slide deck or transcript of this? I don’t watch videos this way.

  • source
  • hideshow 1 child comment
  • load more comments (1 reply)
    [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    It's kind of wild to criticize people for not providing the conversation prompt logs they had with LLMs and then publish code on GitHub generated by an LLM without publishing their own LLM conversation log.

  • source