Archive link for those of us in the customs union.

Uh oh 😳. It's Wes Streeting whom we all hate because of NHS. But he wants us to rejoin the Custom's Union. Fuck! How do we choose? Will it be a path to rejoining or will it be in fighting and dogma? 🫠😜.

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[–] 9 points 10 months ago (16 children)

Increasing our trade with Europe (whether it's with a customs union or some other measure) would be good for two reasons:

  1. It would grow the British economy, create more good jobs, increase wages, and increase the amount of money raised in taxes for public services
  2. It would annoy Brexiteers
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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    The UK specialises in services exports, which are unaffected by a customs union.

    Perhaps the EU should become less protectionist, it might help their stagnant economic performance.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (14 children)

    I don't know if the right solution is a customs union, or participation in some areas of the single market, or something else. I just read that the UK's post-Brexit arrangements "will reduce long-run productivity by 4 per cent relative to remaining in the EU", so presumably if we boost trade with Europe in certain ways, it should increase British productivity

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (13 children)

    Returning to common law for regulations more than offsets an annual 0.26% loss of productivity.

    And the UK's productivity problems occured while in the EU anyway.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (12 children)

    I linked to the OBR and I find their statements interesting because they're saying the UK's productivity will be 4% lower than if the UK remained in the EU. You say the UK had productivity problems while the UK was in the EU. Let's assume for a second that's true. Then what the OBR is saying is that there is an additional factor negatively affecting British productivity; that factor is Brexit.

    Also I think closer ties with Europe would be good because a united Europe can more effectively stand up to big global powers like the US, Russia, and China. I don't want to see the UK bending over backwards to accommodate Trump and his illiberal colleagues. Europe together has real weight to push back against the US. E.g. if the UK alone were to tariff American goods then it wouldn't affect the US too much, but if all of Europe did the same thing together, it would affect the US much more.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (11 children)

    It's a negative forecast based on a loss of comparative advantage in polluting, carbon heavy, low margin goods trade. They factor no increase of competitive advantage in low carbon, low polluting, high margin services exports.

    Services exports are up 75% since 2016.

    They are not great forecasters.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (10 children)

    I don't know how they came up with their numbers but media outlets seem to be confident quoting their figures. Also I found this written by a Tory who was an MP and is now in the House of Lords:

    The latest estimates are that Brexit reduced GDP by 6 to 8 per cent by 2025, with business investment down 12 to 18 per cent.

    If I were to see news articles saying that Brexit is having a fantastically positive effect on the British economy then maybe I'll look at Brexit as being somewhat beneficial. But I haven't seen that. Also like I said, I think having close ties with Europe can have some benefits beyond just easing international trade. It means Europe together can stand up against big countries who dislike Europe and want to harm Europe.

    Maybe we won't agree though. I guess you think Brexit is going to be a good thing for the UK in the long-term? I guess I'm not so convinced about that.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (9 children)

    Yes, another bullshit doppleganger model commissioned by a politician. Maybe investigate this crap before posting it as fact. Meanwhile the UK is still performing exactly the same as its real dopplegangers, France and Germany.

    The benefit of leaving the EU is being out of the environmental disasters that are the common agriculture and fishing policies, not whether Doris from Devon can still sell 4 pieces of cheese a week.

    0.29% of UK companies stopped exporting. Big deal.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (8 children)

    If you think the EU is an environmental disaster then you could argue for the EU to have better environmental policies, rather than argue for the UK to stay out of the EU. Just like if you disagree with some UK legislation then you could campaign for that legislation to change, rather than argue that the UK should be broken up.

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  • [+] 1 point 10 months ago* (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Scots did of course have a referendum regarding Scottish membership of the UK, and I think Scots should be able to have such a vote again. Maybe votes like that should be held on a regular basis, to make politics more democratic.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (1 child)

    @Wen @moderatecentrist although I am grateful for Scotland/Wales still being in the UK because without them the HoC would be Tory all the time (not that that's a good reason to stay)

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (4 children)

    It's corrupt and subject to political capture. It's beyond reform

    https://www.politico.eu/article/copa-cogeca-farmering-lobby-europe/

    We are out now and have replaced it.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    European countries are some of the least corrupt in the world so I imagine the EU is probably not very corrupt compared to countries outside Europe.

    Anyway I guess we're not going to agree. If you want the UK to remain out of the EU, I think that's a valid opinion. I think that ties with Europe can benefit the UK although I recognise it's unlikely that the government will make any steps towards rejoining the EU any time soon.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    It's not just the corrupt CAP. It's the piss poor implementation of policies that wasted our ENTIRE net contribution to the last budget we paid into.

    65 fucking billion.

    https://wilderness-society.org/eu-agricultural-policy-cap-fails-to-protect-biodiversity/

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    I don't know lots about the CAP to be honest. Anyway I guess we will just have different views on the EU. There probably are lots of flaws to the EU but I like the idea of Europe working together in principle.

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago* (1 child)
  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago

    This has been signposted for a long time by the fact that we have not done any regulatory realignment after importing the EU laws into the UK wholesale.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (9 children)

    A customs union (as opposed to a free trade area) would require us to allow the EU to control what external tariffs we set, that would effectively make Chinese and American goods a lot more expensive.

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  • [–] 17 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    And given how much China and the US are our friends, that would just be terrible.

    Oh no, we’d buy more stuff more Europe, how terrible. Then it’ll have to get shipped locally: the terror!!!

    And then European businesses and consumers might start buying from the UK again! That will not stand!!

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  • [+] -6 points 10 months ago (6 children)

    You're happy to increase the price of pretty much everything, so a few rich people can buy overpriced German cars slightly cheaper?

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  • [–] 9 points 10 months ago

    More than half of all U.K. imports come from the EU. That’s AFTER Brexit, so lower compared to what it was before.

    Only 13% of UK imports come from the US. 7% from China. Even combined it’s less than half of EU imports.

    You’ve got your numbers flipped around mate.

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Europe isn’t just luxury marques. It has a huge market of everyday goods, including food made there, which meets the same standards the UK hasn’t yet abandoned and is close enough to be more cost-effective than shipping over the oceans. US and Chinese manufactured goods may go up slightly (but not by much; the UK would have the same deal as the EU), but that would be offset by access to the European market (not to mention the UK being able to export to the EU with a lot less hassle; the Europeans do buy a lot of British goods, and would buy more if they became more competitive).

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  • [–] 5 points 10 months ago

    Plus, we've already played this game. Even adjusting for everything, things were cheaper before we left the EU.

    The only arguments against rejoining a customs union with the EU are ideological, because we've hard proof that being outside the customs union is less beneficial than being within it.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago

    There are many affordable goods that can be bought from countries that aren't the US or China. I actually think I would rather buy things that aren't from the US or China. Both of those countries don't seem to like Europe or the UK very much.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (18 children)

    They trying to hand the keys early to Reform?

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  • [–] 6 points 10 months ago (17 children)

    Yes, because pandering to fascists ended up so well last time. Oh, hold on...

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (16 children)
  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (15 children)

    Which word caused you trouble?

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (14 children)

    What was the point you were making? Are you insinuating I was suggesting pandering?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (13 children)

    Yes.

    It doesn't and shouldn't matter what fascists think.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (12 children)

    You see, that's the problem. Many people voted for Brexit. Left and right. I know if those from the right that cannot stand Reform. You cannot say Norway is racist for not being part of the EU. We have always been arms length, hence why we kept the pound. The public never signed up to the EU fully. It was voted for, decided and any democrat would accept it's a constraint the country needs to work within. The whole wait 5 years, ignore it and rejoin later just drives folk to Reform, angry that they aren't being listened to.

    You don't fight fascism by ignoring democracy. You normalise it. And yes, I voted remain, but arrogantly thinking you're right and folk are dumb or evil, serves your ego rather than decent principles like democracy which is the cornerstone of our society.

    I do agree we shouldn't pander though and these punish migrant policies Labour are pushing is normalising this. With their people snooping policies, its fascism lite. An introduction.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (11 children)

    Many people voted for Brexit.

    Three kinds of people voted for Brexshit:

    1. Racists
    2. Idiots
    3. Total cunts who actually benefited (hedge funds, tax dodgers etc.)

    Opinion of neither should be taken into consideration.

    You cannot say Norway is racist for not being part of the EU

    For all practical intent and purpose (apart from fishing), Norway is part of the EU.

    The public never signed up to the EU fully

    Is your name "the public"?

    It was voted for, decided and any democrat would accept it's a constraint the country needs to work within.

    This is a completely moronic argument used in bad faith by Brexshiters as it assumes voters don't change their minds and no new voters enter the voting age. People voted for Thatcher, no election needed since. πŸ™„

    The whole wait 5 years, ignore it and rejoin later just drives folk to Reform, angry that they aren't being listened to.

    Fascists, racists and nazis shouldn't be listened to. They should be educated or compulsorily re-educated if needed. There should be a new legislation and people presenting such views should have their electoral rights taken away.

    There should be no democracy for enemies of democracy. NSDAP was democratically elected. Appeasement and ignoring lead nowhere - these people should be removed from public life.

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  • [+] 3 points 10 months ago (6 children)
  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    I'd suggest that using terms like "racists," "idiots," and "cunts" to describe voters is counterproductive

    It is factual and this is what matters to me.

    That kind of language tends to alienate rather than persuade

    See the rest of my comment - I have no intention of persuading anyone. Racists/nazis/fascists should have their voting rights taken away.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (3 children)

    Yeah I have to agree that simply labeling people as this is reductive and doesn't help things. There are valid reasons for not being in the EU from a left wing perspective, and the reasons for voting for Brexit are wide. I believe that it was wrong of us to leave. But we shouldn't simply attack and insult people for voting for us to leave when there are various longstanding socioeconomic conditions that have led to it. Racism/xenophobia was a big factor, sure, and the people that voted for it based off that are bad. But it's far from the only reason. The problem is that so much of our situation, or what could have been our situation, has been put down to us being in/not being in the EU. We can address those socioeconomic conditions that led to the leave vote winning without being in the EU. Unfortunately we haven't had a government since the vote that's been willing to do what needs to be done

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    There are valid reasons for not being in the EU

    No.

    the reasons for voting for Brexit are wide.

    See my previous comments as to who voted for Brexshit.

    But we shouldn't simply attack and insult people

    Being factual is not insulting.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 child)

    Thanks for the productive discussion. I'll take these well thought out and explained points of yours against my own and think on them

    Have you considered a career in politics? You'd be so good at convincing people and not just sitting on a supposed "intellectual" high horse while what you want to happen doesn't

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    Anyone who disagree with you is x, y and z. Ad hominem attacks due to your poor reasoning skills.

    Anyone who votes against what you want should have their rights to vote taken away, so with one fell swoop you'll remove the vote of 17m people. Looks like you're a pro-EU fascist to me.

    Are you young? Do you have no idea why the UK didn't accept the Euro? It was the only way politicians could get the deal through. It's not a new thing. Folk voted UKIP in European elections as a middle finger. They didn't want to be part of the EU.

    Elections in the UK happen every 4/5 years. You can hardly do the same with an EU vote. Though you want to run it until you get result you want then never again. So not exactly a democrat. Something Wes wasn't really advocating either. Democracy is secondary to self-interest.

    Guessing you're from the city, pretty comfortable and cannot comprehend why people from working class towns may not have had the same comfortable economic situation. As Westminster traded industry and fishing rights for financial service gains, it's all good. I'm alright, Jack.

    I made clear I voted Remain, and you still imply I'm a Brexiter. It's so hard for you to comprehend that folk think differently than you, that you call them liars.

    I guess right-wing and EU fascists are intolerable. By your logic, you probably ain't worth listening to.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

    Anyone who disagree with you is x, y and z.

    No, anyone who voted for Brexshit is in one of the three groups.

    Ad hominem attacks due to your poor reasoning skills

    Being factual is not "ad hominem attack"

    Anyone who votes against what you want should have their rights to vote taken away

    No, fascists, racists and nazis should have their voting rights removed.

    Are you arguing in bad faith, completely distorting everything I am saying or are you going to claim you are seriously that thick?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (1 child)

    You've ignored and twisted my points and I'm the one arguing in bad faith? Lol

    Wasted enough time on little soap box, arguing to yourself.

    You lost, lol. Get over it, enlightened centrist remoaner.

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