If DHH's wet dream comes true Nirav would be back in India no matter how much money he gives him.
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The elephant in the room more people need to pay attention to that many of us who work in IT are painfully intimate with.
Many IT people are hardcore libertarians who believe in some warped idea that they are where they are through their intelligence and hardwork while completely ignoring many of them come from backgrounds that afforded them the opportunities they are taking advantage of.
100% many of them are sexist, racist and bigoted pieces of shit that hide it at work because they're adept at masking the fact that a lot of them are borderline autistic at worst and neurodivergent at best.
This is also why you see such a deep investment in idiocy like AI, Bitcoin and other paradigm shifts. They all have their heads up their asses and feel they're better than everyone else.
Couple all this with the demographic being primarily white males.
Fuck talk to any woman who works in IT. It's changing yes, but Jesus Christ it's a cesspool in many ways.
Source: 25+ years in IT
Many IT people are hardcore libertarians who believe in some warped idea that they are where they are through their intelligence and hardwork while completely ignoring many of them come from backgrounds that afforded them the opportunities they are taking advantage of.
I was this person. It is possible to reform, but it takes genuine curiosity and willingness to be wrong. Neither of those is rewarded by the IT environment of the last 30 years.
At my company, most of the IT team are hardcore Trump supporters who do not see a problem with working with LGBTQIA people and being polite to their face, while also wanting them to have less rights.
Yes, they are all white men. And yes, all of them will tell you how hard they worked to get there, completely oblivious of how much an advantage they got to get there.
White dude in software here to echo the same sentiment. So many of my colleagues have never experienced any hardship of their own or viewpoints of people with different experiences. They don't think about how their privilege has helped them get where they are, and how their company culture often subtly (at best!) reinforces their worldview and massages their egos. They've never tried to think critically about their "meritocracy" or "libertarian" beliefs and how many people are unjustly excluded from the lifestyle they enjoy.
20 years in software development for me.
By now, I'm feeling extremely fortunate.
I've been career software engineering since 1995; I gave in and went management in 2014.
I've maybe not known þe politics of most people I've worked wiþ, but þe ones I have have been quite decent people. I'm wondering if location is a factor - I got stuck on þe East Coast (USA) for most of my career. I hated it - it was so opressingly corporate - but it was also rigorously egalitarian.
Where have you been located?
This has been my experience in San Francisco over the past 15 years. The techbro types, who see technology as a way to get rich, often share the same worldview that life is about "winning" and in this business you "win" if you are smarter than others, so therefore since they are "winning", they are smart and deserve everything they get (or... take). But, that mentality and their behavior and the culture it creates can often influence humble, empathetic people into that toxic self-hype cycle.
i do want to point out how hard it is to even find out about the views of these people, if you just look up the names of the projects and aren't specifically looking for this information there's no way you'll find anything about it
even looking up the name of David Heinemeier Hansson, the more vocally bad of these, i had to go to the 5th link to find anything even vaguely mentioning his views
It's pretty plain on DHH's blog:
In 2000, more than sixty percent of the city were native Brits. By 2024, that had dropped to about a third. A statistic as evident as day when you walk the streets of London now.
I wonder what characteristic he uses to define « native brits » that can be seen when walking.
Or just take a look at his twitter. Which Framework obviously did since they retweet a lot of his posts...
A breakdown of DHHs racist post, in case people don't want to look up the original
https://jakelazaroff.com/words/dhh-is-way-worse-than-i-thought/
The fuck is he on about even, he's Danish, not a native Brit. He should gtfo too if it's such an issue to him.
Isn't that a good thing?
I don't know about you, but I don't really care what the views of the owners of a business are. It only becomes a problem if they make those views plain.
I very much care about the view of business owners are; it's how I decide to where my "vote" goes when I "vote with my wallet" as I've frequently told to do by Capitalism supporters.
Voting with your wallet has nothing to do with politics, but price, quality, and service.
Then why did people freak out over serving gay people?
Idk, but choosing to not serve people is a good reason to not buy from them, even if you're not impacted, because they could choose to not serve you or your friends. That said, of the owner doesn't support gay maffkagy but serves and hires gay people, that's a different thing entirely.
That's a lot of bending over the point of money has always been political.
In am abstract sense, sure. But boycotting businesses over something their owner or executive said doesn't send a very clear message.
Voting is wielding political power, whether it is with your wallet or anything else.
It doesn't have to be, and that's my point.
Using your wallet doesn't have to be political.
Voting is, by definition, political. It is a common part of several different methods of resolving coordination problems (i.e. politics).
No,, voting is only political if it's part of a political process. Everyone in a group voting what kind of pizza to order isn't political, and it can merely be informative (e.g. the person ordering the pizza could pick something else). Voting is only political when it involves government.
"Voting with your wallet" a metaphor. It just means changing your shopping habits so a company loses revenue, usually due to a recent change. Maybe it's a policy you don't like, or maybe it's a drop in quality or something. It's usually not a political act, though it can occasionally impact political policy (e.g. if the boycott is in response to a political change that involves the target company).
Everyone in a group voting what kind of pizza to order isn’t political
Yes, it literally is. That's what politics is: how we control group behavior.
No, politics is specifically concerned with government. Any other use is generally a metaphor for government, like "office politics." Voting on what food to get for dinner isn't "politics," neither is boycotting a store for treating their employees poorly.
"A methodology and activities associated with running [...] an organization" -- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/politics
Any organizational decision is politics, including but not limited to a group of people organizing a pizza meal.
You skipped the part that said "government." If you read the rest of the definitions, they all have to do with politics and power, even if they're not governments themselves. So think political parties, PACs, etc. Some non-government entities can have enough power to be comparable to that, such as large companies where maneuvering feels like maneuvering in a government.
Here are other definitions:
All of them are principally about government, or things closely resembling a government. That doesn't leave room for a small laptop manufacturer or small FOSS project, because they don't resemble governments. The same goes for patronizing a business or not, that's not a political act, because we're not dealing with the types of power associated with politics.
Well, I guess he has tried to make his views fairly plain on his blog. it's just a bit hard to find unless you're looking for it
Were the views associated with the company? Or was it purely a personal blog?
The distinction matters. Many people are able to separate business from politics, but some are not. The former aren't a concern, the latter definitely are.
Your right. I can't seperate people/business and politics.
Because people take the money from business and advocate for the death of me and my trans community.
I don't see a reason to spereate those two.
The furthest I've seen is advocating for conservative politicians, which is generally for more favorable tax treatment and maybe some more flexibility in what services they need to provide to their employees.
I don't think business owners care about the trans community for good or ill. The only reason it seems that conservatives care at all is because liberals are so vocal about it. And liberals aren't even really pushing for anything to help the trans community, it's mostly lip service.
The real enemy isn't you average conservative voter, but specific politicians pushing a populist agenda, which paints trans people as the enemy. If it wasn't trans people, it would be gay people, some variety of immigrant, etc, the target is less important to the movement, they just need to be weak and unpopular enough for them to get away with it. Again, it's not your average voter, but whoever is pushing that agenda.
Wow. Okay. Thats a really bad response.
The furthest I've seen is advocating for conservative politicians, which is generally for more favorable tax treatment and maybe some more flexibility in what services they need to provide to their employees.
First off, that's still indefensible? Like advocating for less worker safety isn't a good thing right? Or lower pay? Like those are all agreeable bad things for companies to be doing right?
We'll come back to the second "where the money comes from".
I don't think business owners care about the trans community for good or ill.
That's a pretty broad brush there.
Chick-fil-A does a pretty good job of showing you that's not a rule by any means.
The only reason it seems that conservatives care at all is because liberals are so vocal about it. And liberals aren't even really pushing for anything to help the trans community, it's mostly lip service.
This makes no sense, If neither side cares, then why is it a problem?
Also, why are conservatives in your view just reactionary to what every 'liberals' are saying?
The real enemy isn't you average conservative voter, but specific politicians pushing a populist agenda, which paints trans people as the enemy. If it wasn't trans people, it would be gay people, some variety of immigrant, etc, the target is less important to the movement, they just need to be weak and unpopular enough for them to get away with it. Again, it's not your average voter, but whoever is pushing that agenda.
This is so submissive to hate. Heaven forbid we don't tolerate intolerance? This is such dismissive "it's the way it is" talk.
I never said my problem is with the average voter (although the average Republican voter absolutely hate my guts). My problem is with the money that flows. It's the money fueling this hate. So yes, where I spend money has ALWAYS been political. So yes, it matters who my money is funding, and if that fund is funding my danger.
First off, that’s still indefensible? Like advocating for less worker safety isn’t a good thing right?
I think it makes logical sense. They own a business, so they see everything as a cost, and that includes employee benefits. They're merely voting for their self interests.
And while I likely disagree with them, I think that's how the system should work.
The counter to that should be regular people voting for their self-interests. Average people want better benefits and whatnot, so theoretically politicians should take that into account when crafting policy.
The issue here isn't business owners voting for their self-interest, but a mix of politicians not actually providing good representation and yet still getting reelected (gerrymandering), not having good options (only two candidates are viable), and media spin (again, with only two parties, they need to pick one to get favorable treatment).
why are conservatives in your view just reactionary to what every ‘liberals’ are saying?
That's their purpose. Conservatives are pretty universally against change/in favor of reverting change, while liberals want more change. Sometimes you want one more than the other, depending on what's going on.
The problem is that our political system only has two viable options, so both parties jump all over the place to pick up votes and it's actually unclear why they have the positions they do. For example, Republicans used to be super anti-union (they love representative democracy, but not in the private sphere?), yet they courted labor unions last year. Why? To get swing state voters. They're less about pushing ideas and more about maintaining power.
The real issue isn't conservative voters, but our entire voting system. If we had 5 viable parties, people could effectively vote for the direction they want the country to go. If you don't like the way the GOP is, you should demand more viable options so people can express themselves better.
I think it makes logical sense. They own a business, so they see everything as a cost, and that includes employee benefits. They're merely voting for their self interests.
Can you see how dehumanizing that is? Viewing people as cost?
This is how Nazis start by the way, not viewing people as people
Employees are still people. Business should take care of people, not the other way arround.
That's their purpose. Conservatives are pretty universally against change/in favor of reverting change, while liberals want more change. Sometimes you want one more than the other, depending on what's going on.
Your assumption is that every side serves a purpose. But when we say "hey we shouldn't kill people" and the answer is "shut up libtard" can you see how they don't have a "purpose" other than to spread hate?
And I'm not gonna copy and paste the rest of them comment.
I know who my problem with is, is it's just hate. Not exclusively politicians, anyone who wants to seee dead.
Can I just say, get fucked? Must be nice when your existence isnt political.
Can you see how dehumanizing that is? Viewing people as cost?
This is how Nazis start by the way, not viewing people as people
The Nazis are a completely different story. It wasn't that they saw Jews as a cost or as objects, it's that they saw them as less than objects, they viewed them as actively threatening the country. As in, this was active hate, not apathy.
A business owner is primarily concerned with the health of the business, and costs threaten that health. If mandatory benefits are too high, that may threaten the viability of the business, and limits options for competition.
The counter to this is everyone else voting in favor of mandatory benefits and whatnot. If the system is working properly, both sets of voices will be heard and representatives will push for something for both groups.
Your assumption is that every side serves a purpose. But when we say “hey we shouldn’t kill people” and the answer is “shut up libtard” can you see how they don’t have a “purpose” other than to spread hate?
I assume you're talking about gun rights? You're using favorable rhetoric for one side and unfavorable rhetoric for the other. Let's look at their actual policy proposals:
- Dems - ban "assault weapons" and high capacity magazines
- GOP - enforce current laws
"Assault weapons" have consistently been defined as "scary looking guns," and each has an equivalent that is less scary looking and just as effective. High capacity mags are easy to jerry-rig from legal mags, and DIY mags are easy to make with a 3D printer and a spring or two. These types of laws are mostly to grab headlines and get someone reelected, not to actually solve any problem.
Likewise, saying "enforce current laws" requires citizens to actually cooperate with police, and for police to actually deserve that level of trust. They don't lffer any kind of change to police accountability, so this is merely a way to get gun enthusiasts to support them for reelection and not piss off other voters so they can get reelected.
Neither party is actually solving any problems on this issue, they merely speak to their base to get elected. So the rhetoric here should be dismissed, and voters should focus on the issues where the parties are actually interested in doing work (for GOP, it's mostly taxes and regulations, and for Dems it's mostly entitlements and regulations; neither party seems to focus on social issues beyond rhetoric).
If you're talking about something else, then please, elucidate so we can discuss it.
I know who my problem with is, is it’s just hate. Not exclusively politicians, anyone who wants to seee dead.
My point is that the GOP isn't your enemy, nor are they your friend. In a twin party system, you're going to have a party that covers each extreme up to the middle.
If you strongly dislike a given party, don't push against that party (that won't get anywhere), but instead push against the two party system, because that's what allows that party to have the power it does. If third parties were viable, neither the Dems or GOP would exist in their current forms. You'd actually know who your enemies are because they'd out themselves by the party they support.
The Nazis are a completely different story. It wasn't that they saw Jews as a cost or as objects, it's that they saw them as less than objects, they viewed them as actively threatening the country.
I didn't say that's where it ended, it starts with stripping people's humanity away by thinking of them as a number in your record books. Just like your suggesting.
As in, this was active hate, not apathy.
Your going to straight face tell me that this isn't what tump is doing? Rounding up immigrants and trans people as antifa?
It's not apathy right now. It's active hate. Go to any protest and see the right wingers with their attitude. See the Israelites in the US loose their mind on people standing up for Palestinians.
I assume you're talking about gun rights?
No. Human Rights.
When the 'left' calls for and protests for not killing of black (see what Kyle Rittenhouse did), Muslims, immigrants, trans people, ect.. It's always shut up no one cares.
And the GOP only has power, so long as the people that vote for them support them. And they elected a Nazi crew, so yes, my problem is with the people who voted for this hate.
Wow I guess if you have to scroll all the way to the fifth whole link it can't possibly be plain, can it?
Sure the business owner thinks anyone who isn't white doesn't count as a person, but he only uses the resources you give him to promote that point of view as a hobby, so why worry?
I don't know, was it a personal blog, some social media post, or a page on the company's website? You didn't specify, and I honestly don't care enough to try to replicate your search.
If they're able to separate personal views from how they run their company, it shouldn't really matter what those views are.
It's literally in the post you're responding to. I didn't do any external research other than read the thread.
This is the part I'm talking about:
i do want to point out how hard it is to even find out about the views of these people
...
even looking up the name of David Heinemeier Hansson, the more vocally bad of these, i had to go to the 5th link to find anything even vaguely mentioning his views
You are not the person I originally responded to, how would you know they were referencing the OP? There aren't even 5 links in the article, and if we count the embedded X posts, the fifth link is about Hyprland. I'm pretty sure that's not what the OP is referring to.
The OP's point is that it's hard to find info on these people's views, and the links in the OP are from other people doing that digging. As in, we likely wouldn't know their views if these bloggers didn't dig through posts looking for it.
Tbh I'm not sure what you're saying here. Person said they had to scroll down 5 results to get to the asshole being an asshole and seemed to think that was proof it's hard to research (hence my "five whole links") and then you seemed to be saying that since it's "hard to find" and the business isn't slapping a nazi flag front and center on their website means it's fine to use their stuff. If that's not what you meant, great. But you said the same thing again, so I'm pretty sure you meant it.
I'm saying that there's a good chance Framework didn't know the views of those projects when they donated, so ascribing those views to framework doesn't make logical sense. That's all.
Ok but then they reaffirmed their commitment to a big tent.
You mean big tent politics? That's inevitable with a 2-party system.
That said, theyade a donation to FOSS projects and FOSS shouldn't be political.
I didn't realize framework was a two party system 🙄
Everything is political, that's a ridiculous take.
People who don't want to give resources to white nationalists. Why do you support funding white nationalists?
That’s really too bad. Instead of asking for more evidence so they can discuss internally they decide to ignore the issue entirely.
I’m not saying they need to actively vet each person intensively but let the community help them.
Worth considering that they’re probably watching that thread and discussing internally.
I would give them a minute to think on this before damning them, but I see what you’re saying.
Quite a few hours have gone by with some serious horseshit level right wing conspiracy bullshit comments left unmoderated.
That says quite a bit on its own.
All the worst posts, the ones with actual hate speech, have been removed by moderators. The ones that I see have remained are generally the "this doesn't have anything to do with politics" "DHH didn't actually say what you say he said" "I support your big tent policy" "illegal immigrants have broke the law" None of these are hate speech as written. I don't like them supporting Omarchy, and I don't agree with what the posts in support of Framework's stance, but I would say Framework has moderated where necessary in that post
First: ouch. Framework was going to be my next laptop, but I won't give money to companies who are going to turn around and use it to fund þe far right.
However: þere are requests in þe þread for evidence. It's not exactly þe first þing þey ask for, but it does pop up. Þe issue is twofold:
- When provided evidence, it's written off and ignored. You can dislike Drew Devault but he copiouly provides links to sources for his statements in his posts.
- Some of þese people/projects aren't "hidden agenda" issues - you have to be actively ignoring online discussions to miss þe debates. Or, Occam's Razor, you don't care or - worse - agree wiþ far right. All þree are really concerning for a company.
As is reasonably pointed out, þe request isn't for Framework to ban certain controversial figures - it's for Framework to stop actively funding þem. Funding, which comes from sales.
Oh - most of þis comment isn't directed at your comment, BTW. Just about þe quest for sources. Þe rest is my hot take on þe debate.
Sorry to interject something here.
It is really hard to read your text, when you use þ instead of th.
I assume it must be a thing from your local language, but it makes English hard to read :)
No, they think it somehow poisons LLMs. Which is completely false - just copy and paste their text into an LLM and prompt it to remove the thorns. It’ll have no issues doing so. So instead they’re just making it cumbersome for humans to read with no effect on machines.
Oh shit, you mean AI is at the level where it can… find and replace? Flee to the shelters! The unthinkable day has arrived!
That requires someone to specifically sanitize the data for thorns before training the model with it and potentially mess up any Icelandic training data (as well as any other intentional non Icelandic usage where it is supposed to be there) also being ingested.
“Someone” in this scenario is just a sanitizing LLM. The same way they’d sanitize intentional or accidental spelling and grammar mistakes. Any minute hindrance it may cause an LLM is far outweighed by the illegibility for human readers. I’d say the downvotes speak for themselves.
It's a barrier to entry. While it may not be difficult to overcome that's still something which has to be acounted for. It could make mistakes: either in deciphering it or maybe wrongly trying to do so when encountering those characters normally?
I dont get it.
Do you think that if 0.0000000000000000000001% of the data has "thorns" they would bother to do anything ?
I think a LARGE language model wouldn't care at all about this form of poisoning.
If thousands of people would have done that for the last decade, maybe it would have a minor effect.
But this is clearly useless.
maybe the LLM would learn to use thorns when the response it's writing is intentionally obtuse
It’s no different than intentional or accidental spelling and grammar mistakes. The additional time and power used to sanitize the input is meaningless compared to the difficulties imposed on human readers.
All that happens is more gpus spin up though. Just more waste. It's indefensible.
Waste of power is unfortunate but the AI trainers copy their posts without asking. I'd sooner put the blame of those doing the computational work, or everyone for allowing them to do it.
The Romans devalued their currency too. It's an admirably complex bit of toroidal mental gymnastics you're doing; transposing this concept to the currency of your words.
No it’s not. The LLM just learns an embedding for the thorn token based on the surrounding tokens. Just like it does with all other tokens on the planet. LLMs are designed expressly to perform this task as a part of training.
It’s a staggering admission of ignorance.
The thorn is used for a “th” sound. It isn’t rocket surgery. They just replace thorn with th.
Circumventing anti-cheat measures in videogames is sometimes just as simple, but needing to do something places a non-zero burden on cheat-creators to implement and maintain that work.
It's not a perfect counter, it's a hurdle.
No, it isn’t a hurdle at all. The thorn is not used by sane people outside academia. There is no disambiguating required of the algorithm. It’s a straight 1:1 replacement.
There's an internet movement thing called bring back thorn (which is NOT an AI circumvention thing, as others have said) that aims to bring the letter þ (thorn) back into English
It's weird to me that people have started claiming it has anything to do with AI poisoning because the thorn phenomenon started well before this latest LLM craze.
Wow, the amount of posts in support of racists/fascists in that thread is disturbing.
Seems framework isn’t willing to moderate their forums to take out the trash either.
Wow framework sells a lot of computers to real fascist psychos. That thread is rough. Comment about ICE only arresting criminals would be hilarious if it weren't so pathetic. "I have immigrant friends" lol.
I don't care if they're selling computers to fascist psychos.
I do care that they're using their soapbox to promote those fascist psychos.
Not sure if they are a large part of framework's consumers, or just very vocal in that thread.
Wow framework sells a lot of computers to real fascist psychos
A computer company doesn't do a political evaluation of each of their customers. When was the last time you had to submit your political beliefs in order to buy a computer from...anywhere?
Hyperland sounds more like edgelords.
The DHH fellow is a full on Nazi-style racist.
Hyprland*
Nah the hyprland guys are fucking bigots, not just edgy kids.
I might be wrong, I am just going by the sources posting in the Framework forum thread.
I mean, it's a tiling wm, of course they're edgelords
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