This but it would not be nice for a person if there were no other person, thus it's level of niceness cannot be observed.
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100% agree!
desire for infinite growth in a finite system - results are obvious. the finite system will crash and burn. we are fucked, nature will recover when we make it not suitable for humans
“Many were increasingly of the opinion that they’d all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. And some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no one should ever have left the oceans.”
I used to think so as well, but as other posters have pointed out, we actually did manage to live in harmony with nature for tens of thousands of years. Humans aren't the problem per sé, but our systems definitely are.
It's not the systems alone. It's the multiplication of systems per number of humans.
Too many humans even with paleolithic lifestyle will fuck up the environment anyway.
We need to find a balance, what systems we do we want to live in and how many humans can that system accommodate.
Some cultures managed to last for tens of thousands of years without destroying the planet. Not all cultures and social structures are the same or have the same impact on their environments.
Also they had stuff made outta bronze. Do you have bronze? I don't have bronze.
Nah. This is some eco-fascist/primitivist type shit. Fuck that.
This invokes the overpopulation myth, the reductive belief that the planet would somehow be “better off” without humans (importantly: how would you make that happen?), and perhaps, projecting the environmental sins of one’s own culture onto all of humanity.
I don’t know if these count as actual eco-fascism when the target is the entire human population, but it’s certainly adjacent.
I get your stance, I do, but you don't think humans are seriously fucking the planet?
I put a lot of thought into your comment today and I'd honestly love to respectfully debate you on this subject. I think immediately labelling people who are worried about over population as "eco-fascists" is really quite odd and makes me a bit worried.
Yes, the main problem is corporations and greed but doesn't it all still come down to our species? What would aliens say? Oh sorry, you're good, it's those other ones in your species that are the bad ones.. ?
I don't specifically have an anti-overpopulation stance myself for the record, I just find your terminology rather .. jaded.
By the tone of your comment you're clearly quite hostile so I'm not sure I should even be engaging, but I felt that I had to. I'd really be happy to debate though, maybe I would learn something.
What would aliens say? Oh sorry, you’re good, it’s those other ones in your species that are the bad ones… ?
If the aliens were as advanced in systemic analysis as humans are, they wouldn't say bs like that but "Your species is not the problem, but you seem to have a societal virus that forces most of you to destroy your planet for the benefit of a tiny elite class. This seems to be the problem".
Btw dblsaiko@discuss.tchncs.de's tone does not seem hostile to me at all. They're just brutally honest.
Fair enough - a societal virus that's been a part of our species since as far back as the stone age. Hoard the resources and kill the other tribes that pose a potential threat to you and yours. Our species has probably had wars for resources for hundreds of thousands of years.
We haven't had the ability or capacity to start majorly affecting the planet's ecosystems and atmosphere until, what, the last couple hundred years?
If only we could pick these alien's brains on how we might go about solving the basic curse of human greed.. Reminds me of this comic:

a societal virus that’s
been abefallen parts of our species as far back as the stone age
There have been a lot of examples of large, advanced civilizations living in a way that didn't harm their environment (i.e. Amazonian cultures). Pretending Capitalism (or police) is a force of nature or part of human nature plays into the ruling class' cards.
Again, fair enough and thanks for the response. I put a lot more thought into this and realized I'm being very short sighted and, dare I say pessimistic. Modern Capitalism is absolutely fucked and I think ultimately we're on the same page.. I don't believe police or capitalism are an inherent force of nature. Maybe some virus has indeed come up on us.
It's really hard for me not to be a pessimist in today's climate, figuratively and literally. My apologies. I appreciate your points
Thank you. The problem is the rich, the problem is capitalism/colonialism, but it's not too many people. Genocide wont solve any problems, overthrowing the billionaire class will.
Smells like ecofash.
Edit:

Yeah, only 10% of all mammalian biomass being human would still be too much. But we are 500% (and our livestock 1000%).
About the too much: all animals of similiar mass per individual range in the low 100'000s globally (the larger the less). That's the sustainable amount.
I’m not saying humans aren’t responsible for the Anthropocene. I’m not saying we don’t have to save out planet. But we shouldn’t idealize nature.
Check out that thread. It’s filled with gems:
The first comment alone misrepresents beavers and elephants as poorly as that one dumbass sunfish comment from the old site that everyone reposted all the time. The widespread eradication of massive beaver populations across North America has caused untold ecological damage that we’ll never fully understand.

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