I awoke this morning with a question mulling in my thoughts of why there isn't a universal set of ethical standards for all. It seemed like a simple concept, but as I came to my senses I realized the error. The reality that this isn't a new problem, it may be THE problem society has struggled with since the dawn of consciousness.

What I took away from the thought experiment I conducted between waking up and getting around is that from Hammurabi's code through the advent of the major religions to the Magna Carta and the U.S. Constitution, we keep building on the answers to this question and refining the processes of acceptance and fairness. But even though global societal rules are more consistent than they may have been in the past, these ideals still drive conflict that individuals are willing to die to maintain.

What I also took away is that I live under a substantial rule set. Some unwritten, some written. Some I am aware of, but some I can only trust are reasonable by my standard set. I spend a substantial part of my day navigating right and wrong, from the morning commute to interactions at work, home, and points in between.

The last takeaway was about an individual whose personal standards become separate from the standards of the society/community in which they live. This one I didn't resolve, other than that it's the test of individual courage. Why it's not simple is that an individual with the courage to challenge is an anomaly and will face societal friction. Only time will show if the societal system backs their ideas or rejects them. Examples that came to mind were Paul Revere and Joan of Arc, whom society "revered" over time, and Robert Owen who initiated the New Harmony experiment in Indiana, an idea that didn't survive the test of time.

Why isn't there a universal set of ethical standards? Because there isn't universal Providence, this was my conclusion.

Ultimately I decided to quit thinking about it and just watch football. The oblong kind and probably a good word to illustrate why there will never be universal consensus --> 🏈

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[–] 3 points 2 days ago

Ask anyone on earth if "one person should starve so that 9 others could eat" (as opposed to the reverse being the only other choice). You'll probably find a near universal consensus to that question, at least enough to answer your question.

Now let's repeat the experiment by just changing one variable "should you starve so that 9 others could eat" suddenly i think it is safe to say you will get a very different set of answers.

Universal ethics are only applicable in a narrow set of circumstances--nash equilibrium naturally favouring cooperation. In all other circumstances it is mere rhetoric.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 days ago

    Well there could be universal ethics but the set would be tiny. You can only expand the ethical standard by expanding the shared assumptions.

    For example, if your assumptions are DNA based life that survives in an oxygen rich environment with low carbon dioxide that are not powered by sunlight and have to consume other life forms to survive.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 days ago (1 child)

    That set of standards has existed far longer than any religion or philosophy.

    Don't do to another what you would not want done to yourself.

    The only struggle involved is that of people finding reasons to denounce that concept for their own self-gain.

    "Universal Providence"? WTF? Nope.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

    A set of standards has existed. The golden rule is not without assumption and cultural bias. I think that Dennis E Taylor points out the flaw in your assertion well in the novel Heaven's River. In it, an alien race has the golden rule as a cultural touchstone, and a rule in their culture that states what you said. However, the alien points out that what you have described is actually not the golden rule, but the silver rule, saying:

    There are three rules of behavior...

    • The Iron Rule: Treat others less powerful than yourself however you like.
    • The Silver Rule: Treat others as you'd like to be treated.
    • The Golden Rule: Treat others as they'd like to be treated.

    The cultural assumption we make of the golden rule as you put it is that the burdens of interaction and the interpretation thereof lie squarely on our interlocutors, rather than on ourselves. Under the Silver rule, if you would not, yourself, be bothered by someone playing their music out of a speaker on public transit then, by treating others as you'd wish to be treated, you can play music loudly on public transit without doing anything wrong. There is nothing wrong with an utter lack of consideration of others under the Silver Rule. Taylor uses the example of a Carnist offering a Vegan a steak when they are hungry. The vegan would refuse, and likely be offended, while the Carnist would have done nothing morally objectionable under the Silver rule.

    There is no set of rules which is perfect and unassailable, because everything we do has cultural context. This other, alien version of the "Golden Rule" comes from the assumption that, as moral creatures, it is our moral duty to communicate and determine the preferences of those around us before taking any action which could affect them. I'm sure that someone with a different cultural context could make the case that there is a flawed assumption in the alien's Golden Rule, as well. (In the book, Taylor points out that this other golden rule implicitly privileges ridiculous beliefs and preferences, potentially leading to unreasonable outcomes)

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  • [–] 3 points 3 days ago (1 child)

    I think Gödel’s incompleteness theorem applies just as well to ethical rules as mathematical ones: there”s no possible set of rules that will completely coincide with our intuitive sense of good and bad behavior in all potential scenarios.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 days ago

    I must say I'm slightly irked by yet another vague and unfitting application of Godel's incompleteness theorems (GIT). The first one roughly states that given a consistent system F there will be some sentence GF such that you cannot derive in F that GF or not(GF). You can then add GF as an axiom to F resulting in F' but then you will be able to construct GF', and so on. This GF you can construct is called the Godel sentence of F.

    If you were to encode some rules of ethics in a formal system E you could interpret it such that X is ethical (or not) if you can derive some sentence S (or not(S)) and that sentence S represents X. E will not decide on everything indeed if E is consistent (thus never deriving both some S and not(S)) and capable of basic arithmetic (what does that mean in terms of ethics?!). However, to conclude anything non-trivial from this is dangerous. First of all everyone then has to interpret what the sentences in E mean in an universal way. Then if you construct a GE does that sentence even mean anything intuitively? Will there even be any other sentence not derived from GE that is not decided upon? It is likely that E, while not deciding on everything, decides on much more than any persons ethical intuition. Surely if E is non-trivial there are some complicated sentences that it decides on that no person could interpret. And don't forget the arithmetic issue. If you just include arithmetic in E then all undecided sentences may simply be sentences of arithmetic. If the ethics part of E and arithmetic part are one whole, what would that even look like?

    GIT is quite technical and applying it is troublesome. I have only read a bit of actual literature on the topic and even with my limited knowledge of it I can tell that the applications I see in the wild are shaky at best.

    there”s no possible set of rules that will completely coincide with our intuitive sense of good and bad behavior in all potential scenarios.

    If you just want to come to this conclusion, all you need is a counter example. Take some system of ethics E. If there is any situation such that some person A asserts S and some person B asserts not(S) then either E only decides on at most one making E not universal or E decides on both making E inconsistent. Basically if there is any disagreement on ethics (which there certainly is) you simply cannot construct a consistent and universal set of rules. We really don't need to open Pandora's box and get GIT involved.

    Sorry for this wall of text. I'm not angry and I don't want to start a fight lol. I just think that people are a little too eager to apply GIT to all kinds of things. A little pet peeve of mine I guess.

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