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[–] -5 points 1 day ago (2 children)

”What do We mean by the Revolution? The War? That was no part of the Revolution. It was only an Effect and Consequence of it.

The Revolution was in the Minds of the People, and this was effected, from 1760 to 1775, in the course of fifteen years before a drop of blood was drawn at Lexington.” -John Adams

letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson,

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  • [+] -7 points 1 day ago (10 children)

    Violence can be a very effective political tool. It can also backfire horrifically. History is littered with revolutions that failed, or led to worse outcomes than what started the revolt in the first place.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 hours ago* (4 children)

    History is also littered with the even-worse consequences of not trying, such as our western cowardice and complicity resulting in the Gaza genocide.

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  • [+] -6 points 4 hours ago (3 children)

    And the civil war would have been a lot different if the escape slaves had started burning farms in the North. I'm just saying indiscriminate violence will hurt a cause as much as failing to support it. If Luigi had bombed the hotel, rather than shot one insurance exec, he wouldn't be seeing the public support he has.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 hours ago

    You're fighting with ghosts here, no one is promoting senseless and undirected violence. But the system as it is is violent, it kills. And putting an end to it will also require violence, too.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 hours ago*

    Sure, in the alternate realities where the oppressed directed their violence randomly at everybody like hostile NPCs, that would be bad. But in the reality we inhabit, we have seen time and time again that they have used violence very effectively and selectively to achieve liberation.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 hours ago*

    Yeah good thing we live in the real world where none of that happened. Seriously there is something wrong with liberals fundamentally. I used to think it was just the liberalism but yall are fuuucking broken

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  • [–] 8 points 22 hours ago (1 child)

    the assumption that political violence must mean dead or maimed people says something about the people saying.

    back in 2017, the mexican threw a couple bricks and broke a couple windows like americans used to do during the civil rights era and they ended up getting president Shienbaum because of it -- meanwhile our aversion gave us trump.

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  • [–] 2 points 22 hours ago

    Absolutely, some of the most effective violence has been entirely aimed at property. In most cases causing collateral damage hurts the goal of political violence more than it helps. Because the main way it's effective is with public support. Start hitting stray civilians and you can forget public sympathy.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 hours ago

    Yes, ideally only the morally correct and righteous causes would justify the use of violence, but unfortunately it's also the misguided, misunderstood, or misrepresented causes that also justify violence. People want to use quotes like this to justify THEIR desire for violence, but sometimes their causes are just bad.

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  • [+] -7 points 3 hours ago (21 children)

    Violence begets violence. Seeking balance serves only to stabilize this cycle, victim becoming oppressor becoming victim ad nauseum.

    Do not allow yourself to be shaped by what is inflicted on you. Strength is demonstrated not by an ability to react, reflect, or respond but endure. To become what has hurt you is the most total defeat. Living as an example others are compelled to follow is the greatest victory. "To thine own self be true".

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  • [–] 7 points 3 hours ago* (12 children)

    So for example slaves should just endure slavery as that's true strength? Lest they be as bad as the slavers...?

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  • [+] -6 points 2 hours ago (11 children)

    I made a genuine effort to bridge understanding and am saddened by this response. To endure is not to accept.

    What do you think ended slavery? What were those people before being enslaved, and what do you think would be the best way for them to move on (or return) to something better?

    Would enslaving others in turn be desirable?

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 2 hours ago (5 children)

    What ended slavery was slaves using violence against their oppressors to gain freedom. What ended fascism in Germany was overwhelming violence against the Nazis. What ends oppression is violence against the oppressors.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 hours ago (4 children)

    What "ended" slavery was technology making it economically unfeasible, and the violence of it still resonates through American society today. What "ended" fascism in Germany was... Hard to fit in a one-liner and I'm not sure I'd actually say it did end, but I'm sure you can agree the violence of that ideology is all too with us today. Oppression has in no way ended or even been reduced as the result of violent response. It has only grown and spread.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 hour ago* (3 children)

    What “ended” slavery was technology making it economically unfeasible, and the violence of it still resonates through American society today.

    This is also completely false. What ended modern slavery in the western hemisphere was two tremendously violent events: The Haitian revolution lead by former black slaves, which defeated french colonialism to end slavery (and whose proclamation to end slavery was subsequently adopted by Bolivar, which sealed its end in the southern hemisphere), and the US civil war which brought an end to slavery in the US south with a bloody conflict.

    Oppression has in no way ended or even been reduced as the result of violent response.

    Also completely false. The biggest example is the eastern front of WW2, the bloodiest conflict in world history, where the USSR defeated Nazi expansionism and its attempt to enslave eastern europe.

    I recommend you read the article I linked above, to learn how truly disgusting pacifism is as an ideology.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

    Good thing America doesn't currently have a gestapo and concentration camps. All thanks to the restorative power of violence. Things have in no way escalated since then, fascism has been thoroughly defeated. Mission accomplished, Dubya.

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  • [–] 2 points 47 minutes ago* (1 child)

    Good thing America doesn’t currently have a gestapo and concentration camps. All thanks to the restorative power of violence.

    Unfortunately the pro-slavery forces rallied during the period of reconstruction, and were able to transmute slavery into a system of mass incarceration. Opposition to that wasn't non-violent, but you can't blame oppressed peoples for not always winning their confrontations. You can read about that in WEB dubois's black reconstruction in america. Your unwillingness to read even short articles above, is probably why you're so ignorant of the history of these class struggles.

    Things have in no way escalated since then,

    This is interesting coming from someone who avows pacifism, and thus thinks that reactionary violence shouldn't be challenged in any threatening way, and that we shouldn't dare fight back.

    Anyway, you can keep offering Gandhi's advice that "jews should've offered themselves to hitler's knife, as it would purify them". But the rest of us in the real world know that when someone attacks you, the best course of action is to stand up and fight back.

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  • [–] 0 points 28 minutes ago

    Your reliance on tertiary sources is probably why you're so ignorant of the simple, direct impact each action we take can have. I treasure direct input so much more and respect any of it anyone is willing to provide me. My perspective is informed by time spent in squats and camps and prisons. I know all too well what happens when I react to each injustice versus attempting transcendence, and feel I have a greater impact this way than I ever did resenting percieved defeats and pursuing empty victories. Go ahead and shoot a border patrol agent or whatever gets you hard. I'll keep putting water in the desert.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 hours ago (4 children)

    … what the fuck are you yapping about? Violence is a tool used by the oppressed against oppressors.

    What do YOU think ended slavery? You think slave liberators wanted to enslave white people in response? Too much anime. NEXT

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  • [+] -6 points 2 hours ago (2 children)

    In a prior response I posit slavery was ended by technological progress, specifically the industrialization of agriculture. You contribute nothing here, and the vitriol of your dismissal impedes genuine engagement with those who actually seek it.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 hour ago (1 child)

    Slavery was ended by revolutionary liberation. You think you’re being intellectual (or something) but you’re instead being racist & diminishing the accomplishments of revolutionary black liberators and civil rights leaders etc.

    I do not even want to dignify the idea that ”slavery was ended by technological advances in agriculture”. Might be the most racist thing I’ve ever seen on Lemmy so far.

    It’s like you guys have meetings on who can be more Nazi Apologist, more ignorantly racist and anti Immigration, and then you say “alright, we’re gonna go be progressive online!”

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  • [–] 0 points 1 hour ago

    You don't think a cotton gin requiring vastly less effort to maintain/oppress had anything to do with it? This was the one time the American empire engaged in a just war that was in no way economic?

    ...the very idea might be the most racist thing you've seen on Lemmy so far?

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  • [–] 5 points 2 hours ago (3 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 hour ago (2 children)

    Idealism is perhaps the trait I am most proud of, and what I genuinely believe has the best chance of leading us to a brighter tomorrow. 'Victories of pacifism' is not a term I am familiar with, and I am neither going to read all those links or start citing bhagavad gita at you. I would love to continue exchanging ideas directly, but am realizing there is a hostile and well-entrenched audience here impeding that process. A sense of unity predates, has endured, and will outlast every empire. Acceptance of the tools of your oppressors as all-powerful and inevitable is perhaps the most fundamental defeat there is. Whatever is built with them must crumble like all that came before. Feel free to DM me.

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