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[–] 24 points 3 months ago (5 children)

There are a lot of good answers here that expand on broader social problems, so I'll focus on reasons given by men in my life.

  1. Equality is legally enshrined, therefore any women still complaining are just experiencing the same things as men and calling it misogyny

  2. A litany of reasons men are unfairly treated as well, all real, but taken out of the broader context of how much worse it is for women.

  3. Misogyny isn't real, people are just assholes.

  4. There are a codified differences between sexes and therefore different roles we need to fill, stepping outside those roles brings depression and misery.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    Adding one I've heard: women are capable of granting the gift of life, which is the greatest ability and brings the greatest sense of fulfillment. So it all balances out.

    They honestly thought this was a good argument.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    So we can do this amazing thing… and that makes it okay to treat us worse?

    Dafuc?

    lol I read this to my hubby and he said ‘that’s like one guy saying ‘horses shouldn’t be made into glue!’ And another guy going ‘but they can run really fast so it’s okay!’

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  • [–] 20 points 3 months ago (7 children)

    I think that many people (not only men) believed that having women's rights legally enshrined would be all that was required. You have the same rights now, so surely any failures must be because you're doing something wrong (like the whole bs lean-in idea).

    The reality has proven to be far more difficult. True equality requires a fundamental shift in how society thinks about women, which requires effort from each individual.

    Discovering and changing your internalised biases is hard work, the kind people often need therapy for. Having to do that when it means recognising and acknowledging your personal privilege is even harder. Add in pressure to fit in with your peers and it can quickly become something you'd rather just avoid. That's a very normal human reaction. In order to overcome this, women have had to basically scream each message from the rooftops until it finally sank in, and the internal changes started.

    However, screaming things from rooftops means some people will feel bombarded, while others are likely exhausted, feeling like "I changed thinking x and y, what more do you want from me? I'm doing my best, why isn't it enough?", and, again, respond by avoiding the topic.

    Tldr, it's hard work for no immediate benefit to the person doing the work, possibly even negative consequences socially. Who wouldn't want to avoid that? Also some people are exhausted from the work they've already done.

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  • [–] 11 points 3 months ago (5 children)

    This is indeed another problem. Successful change tends to be incremental, but when dealing with social issues going "incrementally" basically leaves people in the dust.

    There was a lot of bad blood over gay marriages, for example, in some gay/lesbian quarters when that hard-won right was finally achieved (though there's loads of signs of this backsliding now because ... well ... gestures vaguely in the direction of the world). After a major social bloodbath they'd finally accomplished a major goal only to get "sandbagged" (as they called it: their words not mine!) by the trans community basically saying, again from their perspective, "how dare you celebrate your victory when we're still in chains?"

    And that's the problem right there. From a strictly analytical point of view, gay marriage was a HUGE victory for the progressive movement and an incremental change in the right direction ... but trans people were also right. Because people aren't statistics, and if the statistics show that things are "better" in some ways, the people who aren't in that "better" crowd are still suffering. And are rightly upset that, again from their perspective, it seems that their allies are ending the battle because they got what they wanted. The numerically smaller group is being asked, in essence, to act as triage. To act as cannon fodder and to be patient as they waited for their turn. This is profoundly unfair; it may also be profoundly necessary. (After all women started to get rights while queer society had to wait, right? Women got the vote before gay marriage was a thing.)

    Fortunately that brief period of bad blood ended and we've kept up the pressure, but it highlights another serious problem: that exhaustion you mentioned. The battle is wearying and seems never-ending. Every time a gain is made here, there's either a falling back there, or a new battle to be fought in another place. People have limited energy (and that energy evaporates as they get older on top of that!) and at some point the question starts entering our minds: "What's the point?"

    Now add in the fact that men aren't even really in the fight for women's rights. (SOME men are, but men as a whole are not.) They're viewing it as them giving things up. Many of them do it willingly. At first. But then, from their perspective, each time they do so, a new demand for them to give something up rises and ... well ... they get weary too. And unlike women, or LGBTQ+, racial groups, or ... they don't have a vested interest in effecting the change. (They view it as giving things up, remember! It's always been a struggle to present a positive face from progressive change to the dominant sector of society, even without the bad-faith blowback from those opposed to us.)

    And I wish I knew how to solve that running out of steam and resentment at the never-ending struggle thing equitably. (I say this who's in the running out of steam stage herself.) I mean, using myself as an example, I could just stop and hand the reins off to the younger generation. But then I'm sitting here and seeing the younger generation make photocopies of every mistake my generation made (who ourselves made Gestetner copies of every mistake social activists made before us, who transcribed in monastic cells every mistake social activists made before them, presumably). This seems counter-productive. But I'm increasingly out of the energy needed to keep going on.¹ Maybe I should just step back and hope the generation after this one uses better quality paper and high quality laser printers to make their mistakes.


    ¹ Before anybody asks in private, no I'm not in a great place right now. And no I won't be sharing why.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

    So I am a zillennial, and I have been noticing more gen z people that care about civil rights and social justice take a more intersectional approach and say things like a loss for one group is a loss for all. I also think it was more fostered by the social media environment on TikTok before 2025, and I know the majority of people will not care about anyone not like them with exceptions I guess for the times when there are no political or socioeconomic stresses or resistance to being empathetic. It feels like in my lifetime since the time I was a teen that we really made a ton of progress, while conservatives were building up their rhetoric. Now people are stressed, they're more closed off. The right in America is running this huge misogyny campaign, and I think a lot of people are eating it up out of a need for comfort or want to be taken care of in hard times. I remember seeing this study where they compared liberal and conservative temperaments and the conservatives were more fearful, and I also remember hearing that higher wealth inequality correlates with polarization. I think we are weirdly fortunate in this time with the conservative president being extremely unpopular. It leaves an opening for more grassroots left leaning candidates that, sure, talk to the majority first but can openly promise not to leave any one group behind. Especially with the queer, trans and feminist issues they really all are a struggle against patriarchy. And then racial and xenophobia issues are about hierarchies in general. Maybe it's just my bubble, but I notice a lot more young people are noticing these are all struggles with a common goal. I am scared for what happens when the selfishness and exhaustion kicks in. I also noticed a lot more women are collectively waking up to all the little forms of misogyny in romcoms or entitled behaviors or roles in the household despite both parents working. And I think more progressives are also recognizing how racial rhetoric is used to keep the poor poor and what the southern strategy was. It feels like things can be such a cycle in in different directions. Idk, maybe I'm just naive, but I think awareness is higher. Social media was huge opportunity. And even if it's skewed towards propoganda since Trump took office again, I think enough people know better. Everyone's upset. I'm honestly kind of holding my breath. Trump reshaping the supreme court in his first term was a huge problem, and in this presidency red states get a free pass to enact whatever they want. But I also see conservative voters splitting apart and losing faith after Trump screwed them too. I think moderates are looking for new positions, and left leaning voters have learned a lot about the issues and how they intersect. Sorry if this has been a little incoherent, these are just really uncertain times and I am pretty tired already. But I don't think it's remotely over yet, and we have a major opportunity to educate people looking for a better solution than giving in and seeking conservative comfort or some moderate that would keep the status quo.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    This is probably my not-great place speaking here, so take it with a grain of salt…

    …but…

    …the flower children of the '60s and '70s became the yuppies and investment banking raiders of the '80s and '90s.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago

    Wasn't it the promises of trickle down economics and libertarianism? Young people today are seeing what that got us. Most people are working 2 jobs just to get by and college is too expensive and student loans are a homelessness risk because there is no guarantee you will even get a job in your field when you graduate. Baby boomers reaped the benefits of the New Deal, built wealth and immediately stripped the new deal away. I think the ones that built wealth are too comfortable to notice, and trust whoever keeps their money growing at the expense of everyone they never talk to. Idk, maybe this is just going to be a cycle. I hate to think that we're going to have another new deal but with less racism this time and another wave of anti-trust and then my kids are going to be the ones pulling the rug from under people born three generations after them. Also I think the baby boomers just had large numbers, and that gave them a ton of voting power. So maybe the next people that benefit from reform will have to actually rely on this manipulative type of coalition rich people form with the prejudiced now. Or maybe the heritage foundation wants to strip reproductive rights away for multiple reasons and not just blind sexism. I really hope tackling things like systemic racism and the way that gets people who are poor and haven't confronted their own bias to vote against their own economic interests out of fear of an other, can break the power of generations born in good times taking advantage of it. And I am seeing young people at least for a moment here realize the scam because Trump has taken it to such a grotesque extreme. Idk, people are probably just self centered from the demands put on them by society. When something effects you it forces you to care. Education is going to be so important to break the cycles that keep happening and as long as people aren't radical there will always be a reason pushed to them, encouraging them to hate it.

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  • [–] 19 points 3 months ago

    Same reason so many white people aren't interested in minority rights, or rich people aren't interested in poor people's rights: it doesn't directly benefit them and at some level they understand many of their privileges require an underclass to support them. Giving women the tools, voices, and rights to contribute equally takes away men's control of women and access to free labour.

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  • [–] 15 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I think they don't think it affects their social freedom in ways too, or they subconsiously notice that they benefit from privilege, or some podcaster tells them feminism has gone too far because equality can feel like oppression. Some probably made the faustian bargain of being toxicaly masculine just for the power and that stops working if patriarchy crumbles. Honestly I think anyone of any gender can just get lost in the sauce of what everyone is taught, everyone's role and what we're all supposed to do.

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  • [–] 24 points 3 months ago

    I have a stronger take. I don't think most people, whatever their social group, cares about the rights of other groups.

    In Canada we have the National Action Committee on the Status of Women (NAC) as an object lesson. The NAC was a powerful force in politics that forced things like better handling of the Canada Pension Plan for women who left employment to rear children, larger and sharper teeth for the laws against workplace harassment, and the specific inclusion of women's rights in Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

    As it grew in power and influence, it started to grow in diversity as well. Queer women, women of various ethnicities, etc. were brought into the fold ... and then promptly ignored or even steam-rollered over by the white, middle-class majority of the NAC. Their stated policy at one point was that they were working for all women and only policies that impacted all women were worth fighting for. The fact that, say, black, Asian, or most especially, native women had issues that differered from the issues white middle class women faced was ignored or, sometimes, even derided as unimportant. The constant infighting this engendered made the group lose its political impact to the point that when the government pulled the plug on its funding it was really a(n unintentional) mercy killing in disguise. (Unintentional in that the intent was to kill the group; the mercy was unintentional.)

    So here we had one of the most powerful voices for women in any country on the planet torn up from within because it was created by and dominated by middle class white women who absolutely did not care (for the most part) about the issues facing, say, native women. Native women were getting killed. White middle class women were getting lower salaries than me. Both are problems, but one seems just a wee tad more important than the other to me. (But what do I know? I'm not white so my opinion didn't count. Yes there is lingering bitterness. Does it show?)

    You can find this story again and again all over the place. The strongest anti-immigration voices in Canada with each wave of new immigrants was ... ... the previous waves of immigrants. Ukrainians didn't want Italian immigrants. Italian immigrants didn't want the Russian Jews. Russian Jews didn't want the Ethiopians. Ethiopians didn't want the Iraqi nor the Iranians. And so on and so on and so on. Each group seems to be laser focused on itself only and genuinely doesn't care about other groups.

    Men not caring about women's rights is just part and parcel of that same element of terrible humanity. Everybody cares about the in-group. Nobody (statistically speaking) cares about the out-group. Hell, even the so-called "Zoomers" who claim to be anti-bigotry of all kinds ... are intensely ageist. There's always the in-group and the out-group, even among those who most loudly proclaim their universality.

    Does this mean we should give up? HELL NO! I'll take a page from The Who here and say "we've launched the revolution, 'history ain't changed', so pick up our guitars again and launch the next!" Human behaviour is a shit stain on morality. But shit stains can be brushed out with effort. The darker elements of human nature can be slowly removed from the fabric of society.

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  • [–] 12 points 3 months ago

    I would like to add a very simple reason that, is kinda brought up by eveyone here, but just from a personal pov.

    Men are raised in a way where they are taught to not believe women.

    It's even sadder because I will say this, and men will read this, and they will say "thats not me, I believe women." and then will continue going on not realizing they do not believe women.

    Its a very subtle thing, its not like their parents say "women can't be trusted." Its culture and habit and small differences in the way boys and girls are treated growing up, and who knows what else.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 months ago

    Because the system works for them, as-is.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 months ago

    Control. They dont want women to have power to say no.

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  • [+] 1 point 3 months ago (1 child)