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Bless us, Spider-Man, for we have sinned (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/atheistmemes@lemmy.world
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/51043210

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[–] 0 points 1 year ago (9 children)

Except the authors openly acknowledged that those are fictitious works

Plenty of fiction is written without acknowledging its fictional nature. Hell, the spoofy historical comedies even lean into incredulity, adopting stylistic hallmarks of serious journalism and documentation.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Source me on that. Show me a spoofy historical comedy written seriously where the author defends it as historical fact. I think it would also be fair to say you can't use a religious or cult text (i.e. Book of Mormon, Dianetics), since those are being presented as legitimately non-fiction, and it has to be presented as entertainment (so no pseudoscience cranks), since that is the main purpose of fiction (beyond disinformation and religion, of course).

    I'm going to guess that you can't, since what you have presented is a logically impossible loop.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Show me a spoofy historical comedy written seriously where the author defends it as historical fact.

    The most seminal example is Orson Wells's "War of the Worlds", which set off a full panic across the Northeast Atlantic when it was broadcast. A more modern example is American Hustle a dramatic (ultimately falsely embellished) comic retelling of the Abscam scandal. But there's an entire genre dedicated to falsified history from a comic perspective.

    Then there are much more sincere takes as well, some of them extremely old and compelling enough to be considered true for centuries. Case in point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Regum_Britanniae

    what you have presented is a logically impossible loop

    Lying is impossible? Getting historical events wrong for the purpose of improving the entertainment value of a media product is impossible?

    Are you joking?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    War of the Worlds doesn't meet the criteria. The book is written in a fictional style (first person perspective of events that conflict with reality). Orson wells in his famous radio play acknowledged at the beginning that it is a work of fiction, as well as at the end. This does not meet the specified criteria as a supporting example.

    American hustle is clearly a movie. Seeing how the director and screenwriters knew they were making a movie, advertised a movie, and ran the "this is a work of fiction.." disclaimer, I feel that this does not meet the criteria as a supporting example.

    Historia Regium Brittanie seems like it might fit the criteria, but I suspect that it was either disinformation (no actual ancient Latin history, fabricated for clout) or not presented as entertainment.

    Lying is impossible? Getting historical events wrong for the purpose of improving the entertainment value of a media product is impossible?

    This is not what I was trying to convey. What I was trying to say is thst its impossible to have an author create a piece of fiction, written as factual, purely for entertainment purposes, while maintaining that it is factual.

    Yes people can lie, I never said they couldn't.

    So far we have one possible example from 400 years ago, where were don't know how the author presented or defended his work as factual or fictional.

    I'm not convinced. In fact, 2 out of 3 of your sources pretty explicitly support my point, and the 3rd might support yours a tiny bit.

    Are you joking?

    Tone it back a bit. Get out of your own head and take another look at what is being presented. To use a phrase: "touch grass."

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    War of the Worlds doesn’t meet the criteria.

    It quite literally caused a national panic, because it was delivered in a believable manner to a gullible audience.

    American hustle is clearly a movie.

    It's a biopic that presents itself as a historical account of real life events.

    Historia Regium Brittanie seems like it might fit the criteria, but I suspect

    You're going to have to put more on the table than "it doesn't count because I would have known better if I'd read it in 1163".

    What I was trying to say is thst its impossible to have an author create a piece of fiction, written as factual, purely for entertainment purposes, while maintaining that it is factual.

    It is incredibly easy.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It quite literally caused a national panic, because it was delivered in a believable manner to a gullible audience.

    It mostly did not. Ironically, that story is mostly fictitious.

    Did the 1938 Radio Broadcast of 'War of the Worlds' Cause a Nationwide Panic? | Snopes.com https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/war-of-the-worlds/

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    It quite literally caused a national panic, because it was delivered in a believable manner to a gullible audience.

    That was not one of the criteria. People are in a panic about all kinds of fake shit all the time, but (practically) nobody is out trying to rebuild civilization after the human race was decimated by alien Interlopers after they were defeated by a virus. It was a work of fiction, the author acknowledges it as work of fiction, you clearly didn't understand the criteria for evidence of your claim.

    It’s a biopic that presents itself as a historical account of real life events.

    It literally says it is a work of fiction. The entire production crew acknowledges it is a work of fiction. You clearly did not understand the criteria for evidence of your claim.

    You’re going to have to put more on the table than “it doesn’t count because I would have known better if I’d read it in 1163”.

    You're going to have to do better than one possible example where we don't know the author's motivations or marketing of the work. To quote, I believe you useed the word "Plenty" when describing the availability of your evidence, so far the actual support is "one possible due to a lack of information about it from hundreds of years ago". Also... Not a historical comedy?

    It is incredibly easy.

    ...And yet still elusive to you.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    People are in a panic about all kinds of fake shit all the time

    Because they are exposed to false information presented truthfully. A thing you contend is impossible.

    It was a work of fiction, the author acknowledges it as work of fiction

    Not to the audience responding to the radio play.

    It literally says it is a work of fiction.

    It says it is Based On A True Story, and then includes the names of real people and the outline of verifiable events. There is no indication within the narrative that an event happened or not. There is no disclaimer on which characters are real and which are fictionalized.

    You’re going to have to do better than one

    I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink. You asked for examples and then you rejected them because you cemented yourself in the position that they couldn't possibly exist.

    You're a victim of your own priors.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Because they are exposed to false information presented truthfully. A thing you contend is impossible.

    Nope, not what I'm contending. If you think I am, quote me on it.

    Not to the audience responding to the radio play.

    Quote me where I said anything about the audience believing it. It's not a criteria for evidence of your claim.

    It says it is Based On A True Story

    This implies fiction. Also, it's says "Some of this is true". Also, the authors acknowledge that this is not a documentary, and that it is a work of fiction. It does not meet the criteria. If you bring this up again without any new points or evidence then I'm not going to acknowledge it, since you have brought up the same refuted point 3 times now. I'm tired of repeating myself, and I don't think repeating it anymore is going to get you to understand.

    I can lead a horse to water but I can’t make him drink. You asked for examples and then you rejected them because you cemented yourself in the position that they couldn’t possibly exist.

    You've "lead" this "horse" to 2 bone dry mirages and the horse is doubtful that the 3rd shimmering pond in the distance is irrefutably water. You presented a position that can't possibly exist, hence why you can't provide concrete examples despite there being "plenty" of them and "it's incredibly easy". Your words there BTW.

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