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[–] 1 point 3 days ago (4 children)

It seems obvious to me that there must be some criteria for who can be forgiven. Even you give the criteria that someone has seen the error of their ways. It would be foolish to forgive someone who is currently harming you and plans to do so again in the future; this is who you are asking the other commenter to forgive, and it is not a reasonable request. Those individuals who are harming them voted for the corrupt government and share many of its beliefs. How do you expect people to change for the better if there is no accountability for what they not only have done, but continue to do?

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  • [–] 0 points 3 days ago (3 children)

    And yet the other commenter was, in the same breath, telling me to "get over it" -- literally to forgive, to abandon pursuing the debt he had created with his words.

    Interesting that you would not allow me the same freedom of choice: to not forgive when that other commenter is verbally abusive toward me personally.

    Forgiveness is not in itself accountability, any more than it is reconciliation or a resumption of relationship. Those are entirely different things that also happen outside the context of forgiveness.

    Forgiveness is merely the acknowledgement of a wrong done, and the decision by an act of will to let it go, to not pursue the debt, to free oneself of attachment to the debtor. And in that, there is magic and freedom.

    Conflating forgiveness with all the other things forgiveness is not is disingenuous, no? Maybe go back and think it over a bit more.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago (2 children)

    And yet the other commenter was, in the same breath, telling me to “get over it” – literally to forgive, to abandon pursuing the debt he had created with his words.

    Interesting that you would not allow me the same freedom of choice: to not forgive when that other commenter is verbally abusive toward me personally.

    Uh... I never said you had to get over it. That was the other guy.

    I also don't agree that "getting over it" and "forgiving" are the same thing-- to me, getting over it means to move past obsessing over a wrong, while forgiving means to... well, forgive the "debt" it has incurred, ie. treat the person as if they had not committed the wrong.

    I realize now (due to another commenter in the thread) that you may be using slightly different definitions of "forgive", "get over it", "move past", "reconcile", etc. than I am. I am not purposely being disingenuous by thinking of these words differently.

    I do disagree that it is unreasonable for me to assume that by "forgive" you meant to encourage reconciliation. Your original comment used language like (bolded):

    As Abraham Lincoln famously said, there is more than one way to destroy an enemy. If you make him your friend, you have also destroyed your enemy.

    For myself, I will gladly welcome anyone who has seen the error of their ways. It has been a BRUTAL fucking ten years and while the left is fine, I want ALL my American homies back.

    These are all statements that indicate you intend to reconcile and renew relationships with the people you are telling the commenter to forgive. You don't necessarily say that they should do the same, but to someone like myself or (I presume) OP, who thinks of forgiveness as creating a state where there is no reason not to reconcile, it seems to be a suggestion.

    So, to skip any further ambiguity, let me ask you: What exactly do you suggest when you say OP should forgive those who harmed them? To stop obsessing over the wrongs? To not pursue accountability or remediation for them if given the opportunity? To treat their relationships with those people as if those wrongs were not important, or to forget/ignore the wrongs entirely? To reconcile?


    As a separate issue, it's pretty crazy imo to equate real social, financial, and oftentimes physical (not to the OP, but it happens to many lgbtq people in the south) harm done against one due to their identity, and someone getting mad at you on the internet for trying to get them to forgive those harms. This is basically the tolerance of intolerance "paradox", or the "I want to kill you"/"I disagree"/"I see no difference between you two" meme. If your meaning of forgiveness includes accepting the wrongs or exposing yourself to future wrongs, then:

    1. People harmed OP (wrong)
    2. You perpetuate that harm by telling OP to accept it and/or allow themselves to be harmed in the future (also wrong)
    3. OP responded to you perpetuating that harm by defending themself (right!)

    Of course, this depends on if you intended to tell OP to let themself be harmed, or if you just wanted to tell them to stop obsessing over past harm; if it's the latter, then you did not do anything wrong and so OP attacking you was not justified. My point here is that attacking you is right if it's justified, and wrong if it's not; it's not always wrong to attack someone, so you can't assume OP and the people who hurt him are equally wrong simply because they were both hostile. The reason for that hostility is the sole determiner of its morality.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 days ago* (1 child)

    I also don’t agree that “getting over it” and “forgiving” are the same thing

    That's the problem. Your definition doesn't work for me, and you're forcing your own concepts onto others, even as you're spending a great many words trying to convince me of -- what, exactly? I clarified what I meant, and you are free to take it or leave it, but you only muddied your own. Where are you going with all this? You seem very deeply concerned. Why is that?

    For myself, in the world of forgiveness, it is not up to anyone but the harmed to decide the type and level of harm, and what forgiveness means to them. As much as you clearly want to, you don't get to decide any of that for either me or him, or frankly anyone but yourself.

    If your definitions work for you, great! But they don't really seem to be bringing you much peace. And you seem almost desperate to somehow prove my lived experience wrong to me directly with mere philosophical argument. Why is that? Do you know what motivates your response, and produced this confused, driven thing you wrote?

    But those answers are not for me, they are for you. I already have mine, I worked for them, and I would not go back to that tangled, worried, overwrought mess you're currently in (and I have been in) for all the world. Now I'm going to forgive -- deeply let your offense go -- and forget you both, while I have a great evening and you sit and overthink the whole thing.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

    Your definition doesn’t work for me, and you’re forcing your own concepts onto others [...] I clarified what I meant, and you are free to take it or leave it

    No, I am not forcing you to use a definition, I am explaining what I meant and asking you what you meant so that I can better understand what you are saying. That is quite literally the opposite of forcing my concepts onto others; it is trying to understand how others are using a concept so that I can interpret what they are saying correctly.

    I see no reason you could have this misunderstanding other than misreading my comment or arguing in bad faith. If you are not doing the latter, you may want to reread it with the above in mind; I rambled a bit but my point should be quite clear.

    You seem very deeply concerned. Why is that?

    If your definitions work for you, great! But they don’t really seem to be bringing you much peace. And you seem almost desperate to somehow prove my lived experience wrong to me directly with mere philosophical argument. Why is that? Do you know what motivates your response, and produced this confused, driven thing you wrote?

    ???

    Not looking good for the "bad faith" allegations. I'm not even sure what most of this mess is referring to, and frankly I don't care to put much effort into untangling it, as what I have seen is a blatant misrepresentation of what I've said. You try to paint me as desparate, confused, and unreasonable, as if it will make you right or do anything but sustain a defensive sense of superiority. Clearly I have slighted you in some way; if you were serious about what you mean by forgiveness, would it not be best to simply move on from this conversation rather than obsessing over making me look bad by lying about what I've said?

    I will not reply further.

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