MangoCats comments on Anthropic IPO warns its AI could blackmail people, become sentient, end humanity

[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 4 points 1 week ago (6 children)

Are whales sentient? Apes? Dogs? Squid? Alligators? Spiders? Fleas? What's the test? (Yeah, the mirror test - how well do you think that really works?)

H. sapiens has more in common with fleas than LLMs - the LLMs only seem more familiar because they're trained on our text-based interactions. Whatever sentience LLMs do or do not develop, we will be debating how to define it probably until they start reproducing themselves and force us to a sit-down negotiation over how we will divide the Earth's resources - or maybe they won't bother with negotiation.

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[–] Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago* (5 children)

So, there’s a difference between sentience and sapience, being self aware, or having consciousness.

Sentient just means the ability to experience feelings.

Pretty much all the animals you mentioned are indeed sentient.

LLMs are not conscious or self aware. They don’t have the ability to feel, so they’re not sentient. There’s an argument that they’re reaching sapience or wisdom, which is the ability to apply experience and tacit knowledge to new situations and complex questions.

Which is the issue. They can become sapient before sentient, meaning they can apply experience to new situations without the ability to use feeling as part of that. That’s pretty much the science fiction AI nightmare. A cold, unemotional, unfeeling computer that can apply logic and experience to problems.

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[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

complex questions

Yet another slippery fish to try to wrestle with bare hands. What constitutes complexity? Some relatively simple looking questions turn out to be highly complex: Are there any whole-number solutions to (a^n + b^n = c^n) if (n) is greater than 2?

Then, any number of complex looking questions turn out to be quite simple with a little insight: such as any large product which has a factor that reduces to 0.

What's simple for some people is hard for others, and I would posit that is greatly amplified when you stop comparing humans to humans and start comparing humans to animals or machines...

they can apply experience to new situations without the ability to use feeling as part of that.

We put unfeeling psychopaths in charge of our largest corporations, to maximize profits - a machine might be less scary in the long run.

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[–] Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (3 children)

Well, that’s not really a philosophical question. Simple questions are ones that only deal with one question at a time and have single answers.

Complex question involve multiple implicit questions and require inference to answer and there are multiple possible correct answers.

“Are there any whole-number solutions to (a^n + b^n =c^n) where n>2” isn’t complex. That’s actually extremely easy to answer. You could just keep brute forcing through every whole number in known existence if you had the compute power. Like trying to find the next digit of pi. But that’s not Fermat’s last theorem. The actual problem is “there are no whole-number solutions to (a^n + b^n =c^n) where n>2, prove it“ which is much more complex because it requires answering multiple questions along the way. The implicit questions that arise are simple “why” questions that have to be answered.

The answer to your question is “no”. But then the follow is “well why”. Wrapping it all up in a nice equation that explains all the “well why” questions before they’re even asked is the complex part.

AI is already getting to that point. LLMs are not synonymous with AI. They’re a type of AI but there are far more models out there than just LLMs. They’re just a subset of generative AI.

“Easy” and “hard” are NOT the same thing as “simple” and “complex”.

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[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

that’s not really a philosophical question

Choose your field... two rabbis (dirty old men, of course) having agreed that abortion is a sin: debating whether it is a sin for a woman to perform feminine hygeine after rape to possibly prevent pregnancy from that rape. Where on the continuum from Monty Python's "every sin is sacred" up to late term does abortion become a sin? Do the circumstances of the insemination come into play or not, and if so... how? What considerations are given to alienating the woman and perhaps her family from the synagogue if too hard-line of an interpretation is taught? Should the considerations be drawn up mathematically with weights and formulas if possible? Like physics, if you have a formula you can check it for correctness by putting in test values and seeing if the results are reasonable.

“Easy” and “hard” are NOT the same thing as “simple” and “complex”.

No, but they rhyme - so to speak. Hard problems become easier when their apparent complexities are simplified.

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[–] Earthwormjim91@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 child)

Well that first one is very much a complex question with no correct answer, that also requires sentience, not just sapience. Those are the questions where the disconnect becomes dangerous, because now you bring in morals, and moral questions are by definition emotional. There’s no such thing as a concrete standard of morals.

The rabbis agree that abortion is sin. Do they agree that preventing pregnancy from the start counts as abortion? Given that they’re rabbis, the answer would probably be no, because even the most Orthodox Jews believe women are allowed contraception.

But that’s not really an answer to the real question, because the real question of when does abortion become a sin requires answering the next question of when does it become abortion and not prevention? Is it the Catholic view where preventing a pregnancy is the same as abortion, the biological point where it becomes a living organism with its own DNA, or the medical view where it becomes a pregnancy when it reaches the implantation stage?

Again, that’s not a philosophical issue. That question is complex because it requires answering MANY other questions along the way to reach a final answer to the original question. It’s an extremely complex question because each of those questions that arise also have a million questions to answer to get the answer to them. And all of them being “right” or “wrong” rely on large scale social acceptance of the answers to each other questions, as well as the ultimate question of if there is even such a thing as a concrete “right” or “wrong” answer to any ethical question.

Those answers are always based on emotion. All moral and ethical questions are based on emotion because morals and ethics are emotional constructs.

That’s where AI fails. AI doesn’t have sentience. It can’t feel emotion and therefore can’t reason using emotion. It can only go by what it is trained on as concretes.

And, kinda? They kinda rhyme. There are PLENTY of things that are simple but hard, and plenty of things that are complex but easy. Like losing weight. Losing weight is extremely simple. It’s basic thermodynamics. Consume less energy than you expend, and you lose weight. Period. No exception. Now that can be extremely HARD for most people to actually do. Tying your shoes is relatively complex. It’s multiple steps that all depend on the previous step being completed properly. But it’s easy enough to do that most people can master it by the time they’re 8.

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[–] MangoCats@feddit.it 1 point 1 week ago

There’s no such thing as a concrete standard of morals.

My sociology professor used to say: "if you look far enough in human societies, you will find examples of just about everything imaginable being accepted, or restricted except for incest and cannibalism, those two have clearly observable problems and generally societies will shun them eventually - with notable exceptions such as the Hapsburgs of Europe and the odd cannibal tribe in the Pacific.

It’s an extremely complex question because each of those questions that arise also have a million questions to answer to get the answer to them. And all of them being “right” or “wrong” rely on large scale social acceptance of the answers to each other questions

For an AI to participate in such discussions, it - like a human - would need to learn the locally accepted social mores and synthesize any gaps from the available information. The final result for this and similar questions will depend heavily on the society it is learning from - uncontacted tribes in the Amazon will have different answers from tribes in equatorial West Africa, and of course different answers still from Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc. etc. (each of those having dozens to hundreds of sects...) There is no global answer.

AI doesn’t have sentience. It can’t feel emotion and therefore can’t reason using emotion.

To the extent that emotion is expressed in lexical tokens it can process, AI can process those tokens in context and "feel" to the fidelity that writers can express what emotion is and how it should / should not, does / does not impact decisions.

...losing weight is simple... that can be extremely HARD for most people to actually do.

Knowing the physics doesn't make self-control any easier. Losing weight is a behavioral thing and many of the factors in the behavioral choices aren't under rational control - the decision to eat is strongly driven by all kinds of biological factors that don't care about your reason and philosophies. I wonder what similar problems AI may develop in the future as an emergent behavior of other things we are building into it.

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