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Three reasons why "AI" is not conscious and perhaps never will be (www.nature.com)
submitted 2 weeks ago by to c/technology@lemmy.world
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Artificial-intelligence systems such as large language models (LLMs) can exhibit behaviour that seems strikingly intelligent. This has led many people, including some experts, to wonder whether these systems could have some form of consciousness — the capacity for subjective experience. However, we think that existing AI systems are not conscious, and that, along current trajectories of development, they are not likely to become conscious. Greater clarity about whether AI could become consciousness will be crucial as society grapples with the challenges posed by this increasingly powerful technology.

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[–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (11 children)

How is red a subjective experience? We can all experience red things, at least, all of us with functioning eyes. What about that is subjective? How is color not directly measurable? Color is very easy to measure, we can even assign it values, like (r,g,b). If you see something red, you have already measured it to have the values (>0,0,0). I don't know what the term "internal experience" even means. Experience is just something that happens to something else. A rock experiences erosion in the rain. I am experiencing tiredness right now. To say something experiences something is to just say X is happening to Y. I don't see how it is meaningful to assign adjectives like "internal" or "external" to it. I mean, if the adjective was meaningful, then would it not imply that you are implicitly contrasting "internal experience" with "external experience"? What on earth would external experience be? If you cannot tell me what external experience is, then the adjective "internal" is contrasting it with nothing at all, so it is a useless adjective.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (10 children)

    If you don't understand what I'm trying to explain about qualia or that there is a philosophical distinction between the physical world and your perception, just read the wikipedia article on qualia or any similar introductory material to the philosophy of the mind. It answers like 90% of your questions.

    Some specific answers though:

    RGB is measuring/defining proportions of different wavelengths of light, even if its goal is to describe that light in a way that is supposed to elicit a particular subjective experience in the viewer. Color spaces are a MASSIVE rabbit hole so I would suggest using the simpler example of how an individual photon has a wavelength that makes us percieve the subjective experience of red, rather than being red itself. Although actually, bringing up RGB gives me an idea for something to point out: qualia and the physical world can "desync", which is evidence they are different. If you see light with a wavelength of ~600nm, such as that produced by a sodium lamp or banana, you will percieve it as yellow. But that subjective experience of yellow is also triggered by seeing both ~700nm and ~500nm wavelengths of light simultaneously, which you would individually percieve as red and green respectively. This is how your computer screen does it. ||I guess technically you could argue the cone activations in your eye end up the same, so this may be a bad example... regardless, the point is that something like a taste or smell or color has no physical meaning, they are experiences which are caused by physical phenomena rather than being the physical phenomena themselves.||

    I am using "internal experience" to mean the subjective way that you percieve the world. If I just used "experience" you could use it more broadly in your sense of "X is happening to you", which is not what I mean. I guess you could call those things happening in the physical world an "external experience" but I agree, that is a bit confusing and is not my intention. I am using "internal" to make a more specific compound term, not really to contrast it with "external". But if you are using the word "experience" to mean "C is happening to you" then yes, the external experience is the thing that is physically happening and the internal experience is your perception of it happening to you.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (9 children)

    there is a philosophical distinction between the physical world and your perception

    Proof?

    RGB is measuring/defining proportions of different wavelengths of light

    We knew about colors long before anyone knew what a "wavelength of light" is. I can tell something is red without needing to measure its photons. There are correlations between red, green, and blue, but they are not exact. Monitors do a lot of weird things with colors and so it is just false to state that there is a direct equivalence to color values and wavelengths of light that the monitor will actually emit.

    I am using “internal experience” to mean the subjective way that you percieve the world.

    How do I perceive the world "subjectively"? What does that even mean? Is it possible to perceive the world "objectively"?

    But if you are using the word “experience” to mean “C is happening to you” then yes, the external experience is the thing that is physically happening and the internal experience is your perception of it happening to you.

    So all you mean by "subjective experience" is that the things are happening to me specifically? So, if thing happens to another thing, and one of those things is a subject, then it is subjective? That is a strange way to use the word "subjective." If I eat a sandwich, is that subjective eating?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (8 children)

    What do you mean "proof"? Proof that the field of philosophy considers there to be a distinction? I pointed you to a great resource to learn about this, the proof that philosophers think there is a distinction and the details of how and why they believe that (and common arguments against it if that's your jam!) are RIGHT THERE in the link I provided. This is not some crackpot theory I am trying to prove to you in a lemmy thread, I am just explaining philosophy of mind 101. Like, this is literally related to "I think, therefore I am". If you disagree with philosophy in general then I'm not going to spend several hours justifying the entire field of philosophy to you; I've pointed you in the right direction, if you want to learn more about it then just read the basics, they can explain it better than I can and it's much less argumentative that way. Seriously, I recommend it, it's a good time and it's a fun way to explore the nature of your mind.

    To answer your edits (briefly, again this is covered in the link or any similar resource):

    • Your eyes measure the photons and cause your brain to produce the subjective experience of "red". Nothing about this relies on you knowing how photons work. Monitors vary and rgb doesn't correlate directly to light wavelength, but it therefore also does not correlate directly with your subjective experience. Your subjective experience also does not always line up with wavelengths of light-- are you familiar with the optical illusion where one shade of (physical) grey is percieved as lighter or darker based on context? This is another great example of qualia vs physical properties, the light from both grey squares has the same physical properties but causes different qualia based on context(!)
    • It is not possible to percieve the world objectively. In the phrase "subjective way that you percieve the world", I am again just using "subjective" the same way I used "internal", ie. to emphasize that I am talking about your experience of the world and not the actual world itself (think of how you percieve the grey squares in the above illusion rather than how they are physically the same color).

    So all you mean by “subjective experience” is that the things are happening to me specifically?

    No, by "internal experience" or "subjective experience" I mean that I am referring to your perception of the thing happening. If I coat a rock in honey, it becomes sticky. If I coat your arm in honey, it also becomes sticky. What "subjective experience" refers to is what you feel and percieve when I am coating your arm in honey. It's what you have that the rock doesn't-- your thoughts, perceptions, feelings, etc.

    So, if thing happens to another thing, and one of those things is a subject, then it is subjective? That is a strange way to use the word “subjective.” If I eat a sandwich, is that subjective eating?

    Not sure what you're saying here, but see above.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (7 children)

    What do you mean “proof”? Proof that the field of philosophy considers there to be a distinction?

    lot of people believe something therefore it's true

    i am very intelligent

    I pointed you to a great resource to learn about this, the proof that philosophers think there is a distinction and the details of how and why they believe that (and common arguments against it if that’s your jam!) are RIGHT THERE in the link I provided.

    This is why Chalmerites like yourself are subhumans bugs. You have no brains. You are entirely incapable of conscious thought.

    It is literally physically impossible for you to ever think about anything anyone ever says. Your brain just absorbs something that someone told you as a fact. When asked to justify it, every Chalermite bug is shocked at the very idea someone does dares question the eternal wisdom! To rationalize it, they conclude: the only possible way someone disagrees is that they just don't understand the great wisdom of our lord and savior David Chalmers! They must just be an uneducated heathen who has not seen the light of the scriptures!

    Like, this is literally related to “I think, therefore I am”.

    Yeah, an idiotic and completely circular statement, because "I" is both in the premise and the conclusion, and so using it to prove that "I" (the self) is a priori is the highest level of sophistry.

    If you disagree with philosophy in general

    If "philosophy" = Chalmerite brainrot, then sure, I oppose philosophy.

    Edit: Oh, I see you actually edited an argument into your response, rather than just making appeals to authority and accusing me of being a know-nothing who just doesn't understand your genius.

    Sadly, however, this argument is incoherent.

    Your eyes measure the photons and cause your brain to produce the subjective experience of “red”. Nothing about this relies on you knowing how photons work. Monitors vary and rgb doesn’t correlate directly to light wavelength, but it therefore also does not correlate directly with your subjective experience. Your subjective experience also does not always line up with wavelengths of light-

    All you have done is literally copy/paste what I said myself, that color does not directly correspond to the wavelengths of light, but then append to that "subjective experience" with no explanation at all! Where did that even come from in the argument? You just suddenly decided to substitute "color" in with "subjective experience" in the sentence as if that is an argument, with no explanation at all for what justifies doing so! You haven't even established that "subjective experience" even exists, let alone given any reason as to why you can substitute the word "color" with it.

    It is not possible to percieve the world objectively.

    Again, I don't know what that even means. Perception is perception. It is not meaningfully "subjective" or "objective."

    In the phrase “subjective way that you percieve the world”, I am again just using “subjective” the same way I used “internal”, ie. to emphasize that I am talking about your experience of the world

    Again, if "subjective" just means "your X" then me eating a sandwich would be subjectively eating a sandwich, and my house would a subjective house... it is not a natural way to use the term.

    and not the actual world itself (think of how you percieve the grey squares in the above illusion rather than how they are physically the same color).

    How are they "physically the same color" if you just said they are different? And didn't you just substitute in "color" for "subjective experience"? So what the hell is "physical color"? You are contradicting yourself!

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (6 children)

    Holy shit fuck off, I'm done being cordial. You haven't had a cogent reaction to a single thought I've had. I've been nothing but patient as over and over you failed to recognize basic common terms or even attempt to conceptualize my many helpful examples (well, I guess I could have given more, but you don't really deserve it so I won't feel too bad) so that you could understand the subject I'm talking about. I have never asked you to agree with me, or asserted that the things I am discussing are unquestionably true, especially solely due to some philosophical authority; the reason I have resorted to pointing you to literal wikipedia articles as philosophy 101 content is because you have demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter. How could you possibly hope to be correct if you cannot understand the argument that is being made?

    But you aren't here to be correct, or to learn, or to reach a greater understanding through discussion, or to explore the beauty of your mind-- because yours is rather ugly, isn't it? You're here to troll people on social media to feel good about yourself. If you don't like philosophy, here's some pop psychology-- people tend to assume others are like them in some fundamental ways. I have spent this entire thread trying to believe you are here to learn or teach, not to troll; while you have apparently spent it assuming anyone who disagrees with you must be brainwashed by Big Psych. FYI I have made an explicit effort to avoid learning about what Philosophers(tm) think (legitimately who the fuck is David Chalmers?), because I prefer to avoid their influence when practicing philosophy myself; and yet the things I am talking about here are easily independently discoverable by me, someone with little to no formal training in the subject who actively avoids duplicating others' work where possible. Honestly at this point you're starting to make me think you might not have an internal subjective experience, because I think if I experienced what it was to be you, my soul would combust out of embarrassment.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (5 children)

    What are you talking about, "done being cordial," "nothing but patient," "spent the entire thread"? You literally replied to me like 2 times before this. You hallucinating some long-running conversation or something? LOL

    You say, "I have never asked you to agree with me, or asserted that the things I am discussing are unquestionably true," but then you insist I must be an entirely ignorant moron who simply disagrees with you because I don't know anything about the topic... if you believe people can understand the topic and disagree with you... then why do you not act that way in practice?

    Not a single neuron in your brain ever fired when I asked you to explain why you believe what you do; you immediately just jumped to "this person questioned the sacred scriptures! They must not understand anything!" And just posted a rant explaining how I must not know anything at all for daring to disagree and not automatically buy into your claims.

    FYI I have made an explicit effort to avoid learning about what Philosophers™ think (legitimately who the fuck is David Chalmers?),

    Yeah, and so you mindlessly absorb popular ideas without even knowing who they are from. The idea of "subjective experience" was popularized by Chalmers, who used it as his basis for his framework of "subjective experience" being "consciousness." The term itself he didn't invent, he borrowed it from Nagel, and so the term never existed in the literature until 1974.

    Apparently, according to you, philosophy did not exist until 1974, and so me, disagreeing with a stupid paper, is equivalent to me denying all of philosophy!

    You also say, "You haven’t had a cogent reaction to a single thought I’ve had," but what cogent point have you even attempted to make, other than claiming that I must fail to understand your genius for not automatically agreeing with you?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (4 children)

    Any second now, Justin Kerprank is gonna jump out and tell me I've been ker-pranked. I refuse to believe that someone who understands the history of the subject doesn't know what I'm talking about-- so clearly you should-- but like 99% of your responses have misinterpreted what I'm saying, and then you switched to just trolling me. Are you intentionally misunderstanding me? Are you trying to make a point about the terms I'm using? Are you here to have a serious conversation or just to misrepresent me to win the argument? Is it somehow both? Are you trying to use the Socratic method to imply your disagreement without indicating you understand my point? If so, why? You ask me why I am not acting on my belief that someone could reasonably disagree with me; it's because you haven't voiced any disagreement! Your responses have so far been almost entirely confusion about what I'm saying or insults.

    There is one exception, where you correctly pointed out a mistake: referring to the grey squares as "are the same physical color" is inconsistent with the language I was using, it should be "have the same wavelength of light". Color is a subjective experience (which, for the third time, does NOT mean a physical experience happening to a subject (like you), it means your perception of that physical experience). Do you understand what I'm trying to communicate about the difference between a physical phenomena, and your perception of said physical phenomena? Is it a communication issue on my end? I thought I was being pretty clear, but obviously I'm biased on that front.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (3 children)

    Still, Chalmerite bug person cannot admit that someone who disagrees with them might disagree for reasons other than misunderstanding. Not a single bone in your body will ever allow you to admit that other people may disagree for reasons other than being ignorant of the holy scriptures, because then you'd actually have to have neurons fire in your brain to justify why you believe what you do. Every post you make must be layered with long rants about how I do not understand anything because it is necessary to avoid actually having to justify why you believe what you do, which requires independent thought.

    Color is a subjective experience

    Why is color a subjective experience? I mean, the image you sent me is something you sent to me because you knew I would look at it and see the same colors you are seeing... that seems pretty objective to me.

    (which, for the third time, does NOT mean a physical experience happening to a subject (like you), it means your perception of that physical experience).

    I'm not sure I see the distinction. My perception is just a physical experience happening to me.

    Do you understand what I’m trying to communicate about the difference between a physical phenomena, and your perception of said physical phenomena?

    No, you keep just describing the same thing twice but saying one is different by fiat without ever actually giving any explanation as to why.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

    And around and around we go. How many times will I explain the same thing, and how many times will you not disagree, but fail to understand my argument entirely?

    Chalmerite bug person cannot admit that someone who disagrees with them might disagree for reasons other than misunderstanding

    "Do you understand what I’m trying to communicate"

    No

    You can rant all you want about how I'm arguing from authority (I'm not) or how you're disagreeing rather than not understanding, but you keep literally saying you do not understand.

    Your perception of the squares in the image is "subjective" because you are seeing the same light from both grey squares but perceiving it differently based on context. You are literally percieving the same objective physical phenomenon in two different subjective ways.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    You can rant all you want about how I’m arguing from authority (I’m not) or how you’re disagreeing rather than not understanding, but you keep literally saying you do not understand.

    I am challenging you to actually justify your position, which you have not done so.

    Your perception of the squares in the image is “subjective” because you are seeing the same light from both grey squares but perceiving it differently based on context. You are literally percieving the same objective physical phenomenon in two different subjective ways.

    Why does something differing based upon context make it subjective? That would make it contextual. It's not the same physical phenomenon: one is a gray square in the context of a shadow, and the other is not. Those are not the same things.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago*

    I am challenging you to actually justify your position, which you have not done so.

    Ok, except you didn't do that, you said you didn't understand (a universal prompt to be more basic, not go more in depth) and then switched to insults for some reason. Forgive me for having a low opinion of that communication style. But since you do appear to care I will try to give you a more convincing example.

    How about The Dress? Given the exact same image, with the same context, and an incredibly large sample size to cover any confounding variables, different people will percieve the same physical phenomena (the image) in two entirely different ways, to the point that many people cannot see it the other way. Does that not make The Dress truly "subjective" in the way that I think you were using it, ie., that different subjects (people) experience different things (percieve different colors) when exposed to the same physical phenomena (the image)?

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