It's not fun interacting with them when they often want to engage in ad hominems. This is why I have no interest in the tankie triad.

Interviewer: You Think The Lemmy Devs Are Tankies? Joker: I Do And I'm Tired of Pretending They're Not
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[–] 5 points 1 year ago (19 children)

It's like nuance doesn't exist.

Yes, there were a lot of false accounts of rape on October 7th that were obviously framed based on hateful stereotypes intended to dehumanize. There were also actual rapes that did happen. But to some people everything is black and white and all they care about is whoever is on their 'side'.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    You'll need to supply evidence for those claims. Creating false accounts of rape is very serious.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    https://press.un.org/en/2024/sc15621.doc.htm

    I've read the whole report, that's a short summary created by the UN investigators. Basic TL;DR of the whole situation:

    • Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread
    • The report stops short of claiming it was done by "Hamas" or in any systematized or sanctioned fashion. A lot of people who took part in the attack were not Hamas, and it was totally impossible to sort out which specific person had done any specific attack, so they didn't make that claim. It happened a lot though.
    • The Israeli government and the New York Times both lied about some specific instances of rape, just because it's in both of their DNA to make up pro-Israel bullshit. The investigators who made the report debunked some of the Israeli government's claims, which was easy, and based their findings mostly on objective evidence instead of what anyone from Israel told them.

    That's the short version. Various people have seized on point #2 or point #3 to claim that point #1 didn't happen, but it did.

    Also, I think that some people on Lemmy love bringing this up, because it winds up painting anyone who cares about the truth into the "pro-Israel" side of the debate, and then they can call them a Zionist.

    Anyway, yes, the people who did October 7th definitely raped a lot of people. It doesn't mean Israel should be committing a genocide. If it helps clarify things, the Israeli government has been facilitating aid for Hamas for years because they love having things like October 7th happen and give them excuses, and they love when Hamas rapes people or takes hostages, for the same reason. They wish it would happen every day, and so then they could talk about it and pretend even harder that shooting little kids in the groin or starving entire families to death is totally justified.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

    Rape of Israeli women by people invading on October 7th was widespread

    Can you specifically cite this? Specifically, I don't see anything in the report that is as definitive as "was widespread". The actual words I see in their report is:

    there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related sexual violence occurred

    edit: here's a link to the actual report

    From the official report, this is based on patterns that are described as 'partially or fully naked victims', but they specifically say that they cannot verify specific instances beyond this type of "circumstantial" evidence or eyewitness testimony. They even say:

    It must be noted that witnesses and sources with whom the mission team engaged adopted over time an increasingly cautious and circumspect approach regarding past accounts, including in some cases retracting statements made previously. Some also stated to the mission team that they no longer felt confident in their recollections of other assertions that had appeared in the media.

    Considering that these reports are often cited as justification for various war crimes and acts of genocide, it's extremely important to be precise with language and delineate what is definitively known vs what is assumed.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    This is the report:

    https://news.un.org/en/sites/news.un.org.en/files/atoms/files/Mission_report_of_SRSG_SVC_to_Israel-oWB_29Jan_14_feb_2024.pdf

    I have absolutely no interest in letting you bait me into an argument where, by correcting you factually, I'm taking Israel's side so that people can make one of those 200-comment threads about me and what a big pro-Israel piece of shit I am. That's the report.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    That is the exact same report I just linked to you.

    I'm not baiting you, but I would like you to substantiate your claim that I'm increasingly suspecting is willfully incorrect.

    edit: it's fine if you simply misspoke. If there's something more definitive than I'm seeing that's fine too, I just want the record to be set straight

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    You know what? Sure.

    58. Based on the examination of available information, including credible statements by
    eyewitnesses, there are reasonable grounds to believe that multiple incidents of rape, including
    gang rape, occurred in and around the Nova festival site during the 7 October attacks. Credible
    information was obtained regarding multiple incidents whereby victims were subjected to rape
    and then killed. There are further accounts of individuals who witnessed at least two incidents of
    rape of corpses of women. Other credible sources at the Nova music festival site described
    seeing multiple murdered individuals, mostly women, whose bodies were found naked from the
    waist down, some totally naked, with some gunshots in the head and/or tied including with their
    hands bound behind their backs and tied to structures such as trees or poles.

    60. There are reasonable grounds to believe that sexual violence occurred on and around
    Road 232. Credible information based on corroborating witness accounts describes an incident
    involving the rape of two women. The mission team received other accounts of rape, including
    gang rape, which could not be verified during the time provided and would require further
    investigation. Along this road, several bodies were found with genital injuries, along with
    injuries to other body parts. Discernible patterns of genital mutilation could not be verified at this
    time but warrant future investigation. Many bodies along Road 232 also suffered destructive
    burn damage and conclusions as to conflict-related sexual violence (including genital mutilation)
    related to these incidents could not be drawn. The mission team was also able to ascertain that
    multiple bodies of women and a few men were found totally or partially naked or with their
    clothes torn, including some bound and/or attached to structures, which – though circumstantial
    – may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence.

    It then goes kibbutz by kibbutz, detailing what was or wasn't found in each location and the limits of what they were able to conclude, including debunking what seems to me like a pretty clear pattern of certain fabricated accounts, in sections 62 through 67.

    71. The mission team reviewed incidents of alleged sexual violence related to hostages in
    Gaza. Based on the first-hand accounts of released hostages, the mission team received clear and
    convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel,
    inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time
    in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing.

    They also visited the West Bank, and made sure to make it clear that Israel is also committing inhuman treatment of Palestinians including sexual violence. I think there was a whole separate report or something that expanded on that to put it in context, this one just briefly touches on it.

    Overall:

    84. Overall, based on the totality of information gathered from multiple and independent
    sources at the different locations, there are reasonable grounds to believe that conflict-related
    sexual violence occurred at several locations across the Gaza periphery, including in the form of
    rape and gang rape, during the 7 October 2023 attacks. Credible circumstantial information,
    which may be indicative of some forms of sexual violence, including genital mutilation,
    sexualized torture, or cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, was also gathered.

    85. With regards to the hostages, the mission team found clear and convincing information
    that some hostages taken to Gaza have been subjected to various forms of conflict-related sexual
    violence and has reasonable grounds to believe that such violence may be ongoing.

    86. The mission team was unable to establish the prevalence of sexual violence and
    concludes that the overall magnitude, scope, and specific attribution of these violations would
    require a fully-fledged investigation. A comprehensive investigation would enable the
    information base to be expanded in locations which the mission team was not able to visit and to
    build the required trust with survivors/victims of conflict-related sexual violence who may be
    reluctant to come forward at this point.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago

    reasonable grounds to believe

    If this is where you've sourced your claim then I should probably insist that you amend your original wording to something more appropriate. "There are reasonable grounds to believe there was sexual violence on october 7th", instead of "Rape was widespread"

    The only reason why someone might take your comment as 'siding with Israel' is that it's careless, at-best. Most people will not be that generous. If you actually care about that representation, then you should be more careful.

    You will not be seeing me start a drama thread about this.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (11 children)

    https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-un-rape-oct7-hamas-gaza-fe1a35767a63666fe4dc1c97e397177e

    The U.N. envoy focusing on sexual violence in conflict said in a new report Monday that there are “reasonable grounds” to believe Hamas committed rape, “sexualized torture,” and other cruel and inhumane treatment of women during its surprise attack in southern Israel on Oct. 7.

    The exaggerated and fictional accusations of rape are serious, like the parading through the streets nonsense.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (10 children)

    There is footage of them parading through the streets with the hostages and dead.

    Stop denying that Hamas raped innocent civilians. They did, they confessed to it, multiple organisations have verified it, victims have come forth with evidence, and they even filmed themselves.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (9 children)

    You are replying to a comment that supports the fact that rape did occur as part of the Oct 7th attack.

    Are you not able to understand that they both did rape and ALSO that Israel greatly exaggerated it with false claims to dehumanize?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Can you provide evidence for that?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (7 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Can you go into detail about what 'Israel greatly exaggerates' means exactly?

    Since according to that article, it seems to imply that it was an individual's mistake as opposed to Israel.

    Otmazgin said it has been difficult to rein Landau in, both because he vehemently believes in his version and because there is no way to stop journalists from engaging with him directly. Both Otmazgin and Bukjin attributed Landau’s continued belief in the false account to him having been deeply traumatized by what he saw in the aftermath of Oct. 7.

    Furthermore, it was Israeli government agencies that disputed the claims made by these two individuals. So, I don't see how Israel can greatly exaggerate the claims while also disputing them -- it just doesn't make sense.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (5 children)

    You don't see how they could because you don't understand propaganda. By promoting the fictional stories, including the false accounts of rape and the baby in the oven and other blatantly false stories they can fall back on the ones that did happen, but the false stories will stick in people's minds. How long has the old 'human shields' chestnut been used to excuse civlian deaths in hospitals and homes of Palestians? How many times has Israel blamed someone else when they shoot into crowds trying to get food? The lies stuck with the general population as long as they are able to get out first as kong as there is one true case that ends up proving the lies could possibly be plausible.

    People remember what they want to remember, including made up exaggerations intended to dehumanize others of things that actually happened.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Do you think there is Palestinian propaganda as well?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Yes, because I'm not a fucking idiot. Everyone does propaganda, and some are worse than others because they dehumanize instead of shining a light on something and some are more effective than others.

    That doesn't mean we shouldn't point out these instances of it being used and why it is harmful in the context being discussed.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Do you think you've been misled by any propaganda?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Of course I have fallen for at least some propaganda at various points in time, because I'm not a fucking idiot and realize that it works.

    What is your end goal here?

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