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[+] -20 points 2 weeks ago (38 children)

Communism is socialism without the socially liberal aspects… go ahead and vote for your strongdaddy because he’ll subsidize your house, but watch out when you try to complain that the river was polluted by the state electrical company.

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  • [–] 17 points 2 weeks ago (35 children)

    Socialism is a transitional mode of production and distribution between capitalism and communism, characterized by the working class as dominant and social ownership as rising and dominant. Communism is a fully collectivized society devoid of classes. "Social liberalism" has nothing at all to do with distinguishing the two, in fact communism will be more socially progressive than socialism as social struggles continue into socialism.

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  • [+] -17 points 2 weeks ago (34 children)

    The 'transitional' argument is basically 'bigdaddy promises he'll make a utopia if we grant him totalitarian control'

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  • [–] 13 points 2 weeks ago* (20 children)

    No? The transitional argument is that communism requires both highly developed productive forces, and collectivization of all of these highly developed productive forces. The socialist transitional period requires intense development of underdeveloped production, as well as building the necessary administration for planned economy, both of which take time.

    The idea of "bigdaddy" is nonsense, and isn't found in either Marxism-Leninism in theory or in practice. There has not been a ceding of control to socialist leadership, but instead an expansion of democratization to the working classes, historically. The idea that MLs want a big strongman to push a button and delete all administration is a farce of both socialist construction and what communism looks like, as communism retains administration.

    Utopia is also not promised, Marxists rail against utopianism.

    Please be serious here, throughout your comments here you've done nothing but demonstrate a lack of care for the subject matter and wax poetic about lottery-voting while ignoring the crux of the argument.

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  • [+] -12 points 2 weeks ago* (19 children)

    I simply argue that a single party with unilateral control creates a totalitarian dictatorial state. and totalitarian states lead to accelerated suffering.

    I also argue this is true for two party systems. and proposes a system based on demographic representation with a safe guard to remove bad actors from political power. under my proposal, the state could choose to take control over the means of production if enough people chose. I welcome new forms of political ideas, not single minded adherence to party dogma.

    and 'waxing poetic' would require me to be much less specific than I have been.

    you are waxing poetic with these strange, shifting and amorphous ideas of "class", and "transitional periods" while providing no concrete roadmap for how unilateral single party control of a state elevates the workers to control over the means of production.

    in reality it simply shifts control over the means of production to cronyism. single-party rule creates a party-class and a working class, and the party-class is in no way beholden to the working class.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 weeks ago (18 children)

    Nobody is arguing for a party to have unilateral and unaccountable power. You are deeply confusing how unitary socialist democracy works by alienating the party from the rest of the people, and drawing a hard line between democratic participation in society and the party itself.

    Class is not shifting or amorphous. Class is a social relation to ownership of the means of production.

    1. Capitalists own the means of production individually.

    2. Workers sell their labor power.

    In socialism, workers jointly own the means of production.

    You are confusing the type of labor with class itself, which makes it amorphous.

    Transition is also not shifting or amorphous. Between capitalism, where there is privatized means of production, and communism, where all production is planned and socially owned, is a period where the means of production need to be advanced enough to accommodate social planning, and administration needs to be advanced enough to facilitate it.

    You keep separating the party from the people by erasing their shared relations to ownership of the means of production. The party is of, by, and for the working class, and is accountable to the rest of the working class.

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  • [+] -10 points 2 weeks ago (17 children)

    "advanced enough to accommodate social planning, and administration needs to be advanced enough to facilitate it." -what qualifies as advanced enough? that is amorphous. "You keep separating the party from the people by erasing their shared relations to ownership of the means of production. The party is of, by, and for the working class, and is accountable to the rest of the working class." -no the party is separating the party from the people by removing any means of peaceful transition of power except through mandatory, open poll, party controlled elections of exclusively party members and through strict control of party membership.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 weeks ago (16 children)

    Regarding how advanced production needs to be for social planning, it must not be an impedement for production. Essentially, by the point that decentralized production has transitioned to monopoly, markets have played their role. That's why in a socialist country like China, the commanding heights are socially owned, while for developing industries these are privately owned to a large degree. At the monopoly level, privatization impedes progress.

    As for your bit on political parties, you're continuing to argue against a caricature you invented in your head. Nobody has stated that elections must be controlled or exclusively of party membership. You have to argue against a strawman, because your point collapses when confronted with reality.

    Please be serious.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (15 children)

    "As for your bit on political parties, you’re continuing to argue against a caricature you invented in your head. Nobody has stated that elections must be controlled or exclusively of party membership. You have to argue against a strawman, because your point collapses when confronted with reality."

    • then please enlighten me how communist elections should work, because in China and the Soviet union candidates must be approved by the communist party.

    "Please be serious." you do not need to deride me just because we disagree. it shows a lack of maturity.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 weeks ago (14 children)

    You can read Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance if you want to understand how socialist democracy actually works in real life. Recall elections are common protections, and candidates usually do not need to be approved by the communist party to be elected. This has varied throughout history, but in any case you are deeply misinformed, this isn't simple disagreement.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 weeks ago (13 children)

    Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance:

    Page# 178 - Soviet Union "The subsequent articles in this chapter spell out what each of these terms meant in practice, including the process of nominating candidates, who would come from “public organisations and societies of the working people: Communist Party organisations, trade unions, cooperatives, youth organisations and cultural societies” (Supreme Soviet 1936a, article 141, 1936b, stat’ia 141)."

    Page# 181 - Soviet Union "The drive for electoral democracy did not long live up to its lofty aims, with the most embarrassing retreat being from multi-candidate contested elections to single-candidate elections. At the same time, there was an even greater effort to ensure democratic accountability through elections internal to the Party."

    page# 208 - DPRK "there are also distinct emphases in light of the DPRK’s concrete conditions. In terms of electoral democracy: while there is only one decision-making body, the Supreme People’s Assembly (along with regional people’s assemblies), there is also the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland. This is not a governing body per se, but it plays a crucial role in the electoral process. Made up of all political parties, mass organisations, and religious groups, it proposes multiple candidates, debates their suitability, and approves one candidate for elections."

    Page# 379 - China "Election to the position of Party branch secretary takes place at a plenary or general members meeting, although the election also needs to be approved by the regional Party committee"

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  • [–] 7 points 2 weeks ago (12 children)

    Regarding the USSR, they pivoted to a system of approval voting. Candidates were selected through consensus, and voted on accordingly, rather than in contested elections.

    Regarding the DPRK, candidates are selected through consensus, then approved or not.

    Regarding the PRC, you are writing about an internal party election, rather than a broader societal election.

    Please be serious and read the book, rather than quote farming. You're already misrepresenting and misinterpreting the book.

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  • [+] -7 points 2 weeks ago* (11 children)

    it's all right there in black and white.

    show me a definitive source that shows soviet, Chinese, and DPRK elections did/do not need approval from their respective communist parties.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 weeks ago (10 children)
  • [+] -6 points 2 weeks ago (9 children)

    you said you read it, you should be able to find the proof you say is in there easy. if you read it you likely already know what chapter it's in.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 weeks ago (8 children)

    I have speed-read through this one and can affirm it, and I gave you added context when you brought out specific passages. I'm sorry, but sometimes you need to do in-depth study of a subject if you are to understand the whole. Read the entire section on the PRC, for example, it doesn't take long compared to the entire book.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 weeks ago* (7 children)

    you speed read a 407 page book in 25 minutes? impressive

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  • [–] 8 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

    No, I read it before, that's why I linked it for you and could tell you what each paragraph was referencing.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

    then it should be easy for you to post the context you're referring to

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  • [–] 6 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

    Lemmy comments have character limits, I suggested reading the chapters on the PRC as a compromise. I have already summarized how socialist democracy functions, and you rejected that, so now I am directing you to scholarly research.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

    one of the of my posts you responded to is 5388 characters, plus I posted clips from the book.

    and dont be mistake me, I am going to read that book.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

    Here's one such clip:

    How do elected delegates to the people’s congresses enable and participate in the mass line? To begin with, many of them are locals, drawn from the masses. Thus, enriching and expanding engagement with the masses means that delegates should not lose touch with their roots. Or rather, they should enhance this background to empathise with the people’s concerns, pool their wisdom, and enhance their well-being. Further, the “line [路线 luxian]” in question has a number of connotations. The word includes two characters, with 路 lu meaning path or road, and 线 xian a thread or string. Thus, 路线 luxian can mean a line on a map or route to follow, an ideological direction, but also a connecting thread. It is a small step to the metaphor of a “bridge” between the Party and the state, a bridge that is constituted by deep “connections with the masses [联系人民群众 lianxi renmin qunzhong].”

    8.4.2 Democratic Supervision

    A second emphasis of the speech—in relation to the people as masters of the country—concerns democratic supervision. In a socialist system, such supervision or oversight entails a number of substantial components: supervision by the common people through the mass line; the robust practices of consultative democracy; the Communist Party’s substantial practices of criticism and self-criticism; and rigorous rule-of-law procedures. In terms of mass line supervision and the pervasive role of consultative democracy, Zhou Enlai had already pointed out in 1957 that the exercise of state power has the not insignificant risk of becoming divorced from the masses and becoming “dizzy with success.” The best solution: supervision by the masses: “without the people, what can the Communist Party do? … If you do right, the people will support you. If you do wrong, the people will not support you” (Zhou 1957, 348–349). Or as Xi Jinping puts it in the speech under consideration, the inescapable need is for the people to “supervise power [监督权利 jiandu quanli]” and that power should function “in the sunshine [在阳光下 zai yangguang xia]” or transparently (Xi 2022b, 3). However, the main focus in this speech is on how democratic supervision relates to the rule of law. There are two main dimensions: on the one hand, power should be controlled by the “cage of institutions” and driven by the “reins of the rule of law”; on the other hand, oversight power needs to function “in accordance with the law.” The two are obviously related: if supervision is embodied in rule of law, the exercise of supervision must be subject to the rule of law. Thus, oversight is granted to governing bodies by the constitution and the system of laws. This entails that those given such powers must undertake the supervision of the various organs of state power in accordance with the law, but they must also work to ensure that the unity, dignity, and authority of the laws themselves are safeguarded. The best way to do so is to ensure that resolutions, decrees, and laws themselves are implemented in a strict conformity with the law and with transparency.

    By now I have moved into the subject matter of the next section, so let me conclude with a personal note. A requirement for foreigners arriving in China is to register with the local public security office. This office is far more than a simple police station. It oversees and supervises all local concerns relating to safety, stability, and harmony. Here residential permits (户口 hukou) for Chinese citizens are managed, as well as those for foreigners. Whenever I need to re-register after being away for a while, I return to the local public security office within 24 hours. In large letters on the wall over the reception desk is a motto, which makes the point that everyone who works in the office adheres strictly to the guidelines, duties, and laws to which they are subject in carrying out their tasks. Why make this point? Perhaps more than any other place in the world, they know that they need both to enforce the laws of the state and to follow the laws as to how they should be enacted—with absolute strictness.

    8.5 Comprehensively Governing the Country According to Law

    Among the many achievements of the decade since 2012, Xi Jinping has arguably made the greatest contribution to developing and strengthening the rule of law, or governing the country according to the rule of law (依法治国 yifazhiguo). To set the scene, Xi speaks of upholding rule of law in all respects or comprehensively. The items mentioned are indeed comprehensive, speaking of the path followed, the need for construction, ensuring the spirit of a socialist rule of law, of ensuring that all undertakings and work follow the rule of law, and of promoting social fairness, justice, and human rights within a socialist framework. In short, the agenda over the last decade, from 2012, was to “realise a rule of law transformation [法治化 fazhihua] of all work of the state” (Xi 2022b, 2). Since that time, a significant amount of material by Xi Jinping and the CPC Central Committee has been produced, all of it with a resolute focus on seeking to bring about a “rule of law transformation” (Xi 2014a; 2015; 2019; 2021a; 2022a; CPC Central Committee 2014; 2021).9

    8.5.1 From Legal System to Rule of Law

    In order to understand these developments, some longer historical background is needed (Boer 2021, 209–216). Three terms indicate three periods in the development of rule of law. The first is “legal system [法制 fazhi],” which was found in the preamble to the constitution up until 2018: “improve and perfect the socialist legal system [健全社会主义法制 jianquan shehuizhuyi fazhi].” Given the term’s ancient pedigree,10 it has a fully developed semantic field, with three main senses: its widest meaning refers to all the laws (written and unwritten) of a state and the many political, economic, and cultural components; its more restricted sense designates a legal system and a legal order; and its narrowest meaning refers to the legal system itself (法律制度 falü zhidu). The most common usage understands the term in this narrow sense, with two dimensions. The first is a more static meaning, with reference to the existing laws and regulations of a country; and the second is a dynamic sense, which includes the formulation of legislation, revision, enforcement, and supervision (Xia and Chen 2009, 560). Clearly, “legal system” is rich in meaning and practice in China, and it should be no surprise that this term appeared in the constitution and was emphasised by earlier leaders, especially Deng Xiaoping.

    However, in 2018 the constitution was amended and the phrase in question became: “improve and perfect the socialist rule of law [健全社会主义法治 jianquan shehuizhuyi fazhi].” Why the change? Surely the fully-rounded “legal system” was enough. At this point another term becomes important, marking another distinct period: “rule of a person [人治 renzhi].” The period in question is the disruptive decade of the “Cultural Revolution,” during which the “two whatevers [两个凡是 liang ge fanshi]” came to dominate: “we will resolutely uphold whatever policy decisions Chairman Mao made, and unswervingly follow whatever instructions Chairman Mao gave.” Proposed by the circles around the Gang of Four soon after Mao’s death,11 the “two whatevers” embody—somewhat paradoxically for communists—a tendency in Confucianism to emphasise that all depends on the will of the virtuous ruler.12 This notion that “a person of virtue rules the country [贤人治国 xianren zhiguo]” came to be known as “rule of a person.”13 As debate developed around the problem after the tumultuous decade, it became clear that a legal system on its own was not sufficient, for it could be used by a small group or a person to advance their own agenda. Indeed, it was during this debate that “legal system” also gained the connotation of “rule by law.”

    In this context the third term came to the fore: rule of law (法治 fazhi). Since I have dealt elsewhere with the immense debates of the late 1980s and especially the 1990s (Boer 2021, 212–214), I do not need to repeat that material here, save to point out that the conclusion reached was as follows: a legal system requires a rule of law to prevent the former’s deployment under rule by a person.14 More positively, rule of law provides the framework, goal, and value of the legal system, while the legal system is the concrete embodiment and thus foundation of the rule of law (He and Qi 2018, 11).

    Most of this will be less comprehensible if you do not have surrounding knowledge, hence the importance of the whole of the text.

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  • [–] -5 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    the Communist Party’s substantial practices of criticism and self-criticism; and rigorous rule-of-law procedures. In terms of mass line supervision and the pervasive role of consultative democracy, Zhou Enlai had already pointed out in 1957 that the exercise of state power has the not insignificant risk of becoming divorced from the masses and becoming “dizzy with success.” The best solution: supervision by the masses: “without the people, what can the Communist Party do? … If you do right, the people will support you. If you do wrong, the people will not support you” (Zhou 1957, 348–349). Or as Xi Jinping puts it in the speech under consideration, the inescapable need is for the people to “supervise power [监督权利 jiandu quanli]” and that power should function “in the sunshine [在阳光下 zai yangguang xia]” or transparently (Xi 2022b, 3)

    the only thing even close to stating a power over the government inherent in the people is the above. it simply states a mandate that the people should observe the government and the government should be transparent. everything else mentions how they put up quotes and aspire to work towards bettering the rule of law at every level and party members should stricktly adhere to the rule of law and goes on to define what their concept of rule of law is.

    it in no way describes their process for approving political candidates or whether a candidate needs to be a communist party member or been approved by the communist party. in fact, this seems to do the opposite and suggest that party loyalty is paramount to political success.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 weeks ago

    I linked this section because it directly proves that the people are not subservient to the party. If you want to just read Chinese electoral law, just read their legal code. Article 3, 29, and 31 are directly relevant, and state that candidates do not need to be members or approved by the party to stand for election and be elected.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 weeks ago* (9 children)

    Straw man, ad-hom, red herring.

    We got em all here folks, get your fallacies!

    We promise there will be absolutely no substance in our comments, just fallacies! Come one come all down to Fallacy Warehouse!!

    We count on your ignorance to spread our fallacies without recognition, and get an extra special 25% off if you haven't read a book this year!!

    Come on down!!

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  • [+] -8 points 2 weeks ago (8 children)

    I don't think it's a fallacy, Lenin did not carry out with a communist state and they got Stalin.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 weeks ago

    Lenin established a socialist state, and Stalin was the second head of state in said socialist state. They did not reach communism, as communism must be global and fully collectivized, but they did reach socialism as a transitional state between capitalism and communism.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (6 children)

    they got Stalin.

    whom western liberals will never, ever forgive for beating up their friends in 1945

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (5 children)

    Please don't tell me you don't believe in the Graeat Purge and the consequent mass deportations carried by the NKVD.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (4 children)

    "Believe in"? Like, as an article of faith?

    Please don't tell me you believe in the liberation of Auschwitz and the toppling of Nazi Germany, I guess?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 weeks ago (3 children)

    "believe in" as "think something is true" or "recognizing the veracity of something"

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (2 children)

    Purge yes, you're gonna have to be more specific on the rest. But what is your point, is my question?

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  • [+] -7 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)
  • [–] 11 points 2 weeks ago

    The transitional argument is that communism requires both highly developed productive forces, and collectivization of all of these highly developed productive forces. The socialist transitional period requires intense development of underdeveloped production, as well as building the necessary administration for planned economy, both of which take time.

    The idea of “bigdaddy” is nonsense, and isn’t found in either Marxism-Leninism in theory or in practice. There has not been a ceding of control to socialist leadership, but instead an expansion of democratization to the working classes, historically. The idea that MLs want a big strongman to push a button and delete all administration is a farce of both socialist construction and what communism looks like, as communism retains administration.

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