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What's the best way to organize? (lemmy.zip)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
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I'm looking for specific suggestions of what I can do to find a group that I can join for the purpose of building a real revolution inside the USA. I'm trying and finding it very difficult. The closest was PSL but honestly my local branch seems kind of limp. That and I'm not academically inclined enough to get through Capital.

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[–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (15 children)

Wrong, and you're still not hearing what I'm saying. I never actually expressed an unwillingness to read Capital. I've tried and failed multiple times. I may try again with some of the ideas that you brought up here actually, even though you brought them up as an attack on me rather than trying to be helpful (at least that's how it appeared). What I'm saying, and what I meant when I said "anti-organizing", is that the way you've handled this conversation will only make your movement more insular and out of touch.

The third time you're making me ask a version of this question. What are you doing to make your movement into something the masses will actually agree to follow?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (14 children)

    I do not want to talk with you about anything I do in my life or about theory or about history.

    I want you to go away from communist movements and instead focus your energy into anarchist or electoralist groups who will have a lower barrier to entry and give you something to do.

    You are behaving like an adventurist, wrecker or infiltrator. This is not an accusation, simply a statement intended to express my perception of your behavior.

    I don’t think you’re an infiltrator or wrecker, I think you don’t realize how you sound when you start a thread on a public Marxist Leninist platform and ask “what do I do to build a real revolution in America”.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (13 children)

    This is less of an ML community than you make it out to be (despite the .ml). There are a great many members of this instance that are not even leftists let alone Leninists. The actual comm I posted this question on is the largest ask community on the platform and the 7th largest comm overall. I was never explicitly looking for Communist organizing. I mentioned one org and my first complaint was about their actions (or lack thereof), not anything to do with ideology. I think you should be able to answer my question without doxxing yourself if that's the concern, because I don't need the details. I might even be satisfied with something like "there are some outreach programs that involve education on theory that we invite our local community into" because at least that'd be something. Instead I literally get "go away".

    I came here asking for advice without preaching any kind of message. You've had so many opportunities to give me small pieces of information that could put me on a path to becoming a better ally to your cause, instead you choose to push me away. I ask the question about how you're building community because all I've seen here is you trying to lock it down so only the privileged few can remain. That is anti-coalitional and the opposite of organizing (anti-organizing).

    Honestly, I hope you're a fed, because otherwise the modern ML movement is going absolutely nowhere.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (12 children)

    I want you to understand that I don’t think you’re malicious, I just think you come across as way too eager and didn’t want to explicitly say that most communist organizations try to avoid that because they don’t want the heat it tends to bring.

    I didn’t want to say that to you because people don’t generally take it well.

    “Go be anarchist” isn’t an insult.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (11 children)

    That sits better with me than your responses thus far, and I think I can see what you're talking about. I am still curious of how a revolution works though? I understand the idea of waiting and being ready for the right moment to come, but the preparation for that and how it might look in the usa. Like how pre-ussr there were already soviets that met with and represented the peoples across the country. Also how the party works to make itself irrelevant on its path towards true communism (stateless classless moneyless society). How does the party work towards the end of the party?

    I want to strengthen my worldview and those 2 questions are what I haven't been able to get clear guidance on in my exploration in Communist thought. If you can't or don't want to answer those questions directly, I'd greatly appreciate some book recommendations that cover those topics.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of Capital is that it's about capitalism. Describing all the roles within it and relationships between them, as well as the mechanisms. Basically nothing directly about Communism. So probably not the book recommendation I'm looking for in this case.

    To try and be clear with my thought process. I don't think those questions come from a place of eagerness (though I can admit to having eagerness that mostly stems from wanting to escape the capitalist system), but from a place of trying to understand the full life cycle of Communism. If I can't get those answers then I'm simply not able to accept the ideology as possible. And I don't say that as a defiance, it's just how my brain works. If i don't have an understanding of why something is true, then I don't have the ability believe it.

    Minor and not relevant aside"Go be Anarchist" does feel like an insult when it comes from Communists. Some of the Communist reading I have done disparages Anarchism as useless or obstructive. And I've heard a number of Communists in person dismiss it like a parent telling a child to go play with their toys while the adults work. Not saying that's you or that there's something you need to do about it. Just saying.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (10 children)

    You should just go do something else and not accept the ideology as possible, whatever that means.

    Part of why I keep beating you over the head with “go do the reading” is that you are asking questions answered by it, but the greater part is that you’re thinking in a very idealist way. That is not an insult, just like me telling you to go be an anarchist was not an insult. Idealism is a way of understanding and thinking that’s different than materialism which is the kind of thinking communist theories are based on.

    There is a greater and more valuable understanding that comes from reading a big ol book that “is about capitalism” beyond realizing how a revolution works and the myriad plans for transition to communism.

    Join a reading and discussion group. You’ll have better luck than trying to birth the revolution fully formed from your forehead.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (9 children)

    Stop being a prick. I literally asked you, in earnest, for reading recommendations. I'm not "trying to birth the revolution fully formed from [my] forehead", I'm trying to understand what are the ML strategies that make it attainable. I haven't actually asked what the revolution will look like, I'm asking what your movement is doing to prepare for this eventuality. Because it is a revolutionary ideology, yes? Is it or is it not an eventuality? If it is, then I think you should be allowed to talk about it.

    I am still not discrediting Capital nor the value it has for building a greater understanding. I just don't think it has the specific answers I'm looking for right this moment. Again, feel free to tell I'm wrong about that. But I should be able to determine my own path to understanding even if it's out of order from the way you learned, because we're different people with different thought processes and different material conditions. If I can't, then what you have is not an ideology built on theory but a religion built on doctrine.

    Either that or your username is accurate and I should just downvote and ignore you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (8 children)

    Part of why I’m adamantly refusing to discuss theory or history with you is that you do not have the background for it. Birthing fully formed from the forehead is a reference to the interpretation of Greek myth wherein Athena is borne from the forehead of Zeus. In the context that I used it, describing your desire to completely hold communism in your mind or dismiss it outright, it’s a little joke meant to poke fun at how idealism (which comes from the Greeks) is pretty silly. I made that joke because it can be seen as an insult to be called idealist and I wanted to make a funny to lighten the mood and also make the point that what modern day liberals think of idealism isn’t what we’re talking about in a Marxist context.

    You asked in your comment that I just replied to what the preparations for the revolution look like. I’m not trying to hit you with a gotcha there, I’m pointing it out so you will recognize that you’re not replying from a calm and considered position that you can learn from, but from a defensive, self loathing perspective. You’ve implied that you were “stupid” and “uneducated” all over our conversation. I have gone right past those claims because they’re not worth engaging with.

    You have to learn the basics if you want to understand something. If that feels like too much work you can just dismiss the thing and do something else. You have reiterated over and over again that you want an answer, not to learn or understand. I was not trying to insult you all the times that I told you to just go do something else.

    It wouldn’t matter if I told you that I thought you were wrong and that you should actually join a reading and discussion group and read capital. You won’t do it. You said you wouldn’t do it. You said you just want to get answers. I said “okay, go do something else then.”

    You can’t effectively determine your own path to understanding. That’s a debunked pedagogical myth that will cause you lots of wasted time and energy. We build on other people’s knowledge and experience in the form of teaching for a reason. Self directed learning is possible but you can’t make an end run around the basics.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (7 children)

    At this point you have to be willfully misunderstanding what I'm saying. I haven't called myself stupid or uneducated. I called myself less educated (unexplicitly in regards to ML thought), though even uneducated doesn't reflect so much on me as it does my environment. And what I was saying is a movement for the masses has to be able to connect with the masses, which will include stupid (non-derogatory) people. I never once said that I won't read Capital. That's a faulty assumption you made. I just think it's a bit ridiculous for that to be the entry point. You also have made no argument for why Capital has to be the entry point. I never said I just want answers, except in regards to what actions your movement is taking. Why would I ask for book recommendations if not to learn and understand?

    Also you misquoted yourself and contradicted yourself in that first paragraph. You revolution was birthed not communism. And calling idealism "pretty silly" is insulting when you also said my thoughts come from idealism, thoughts that are not intended to be silly.

    If my original post had said that I have a learning disability, would that have changed your response?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (6 children)

    No, telling me you have a learning disability wouldn’t have changed my response. The first communist reading group I was ever in had someone with multiple severe learning disabilities and they got through eleven works so I don’t think that’s a barrier.

    If you wanted to learn you’d go do it. You have a local organization, you’re on a communist social media platform posting in english so you have access to the internet, access to reading groups and comprehension of the second most used language on the internet.

    Multiple mass movements have successfully educated enormous numbers of peasants using books like capital or capital itself.

    It’s okay if you don’t want to do the reading. You can just not understand communism. You don’t have to understand everything. Just go do something else.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    But it you want your movement to grow you should actually try to be helpful. Telling someone to go organize elsewhere (aka fuck off) because he expressed a difficulty with an objectively difficult book belies an ingrained sense of usamerican rugged individualism. The entire fucking point of leaving the capitalist system is because it's impersonal and keeps people down. You should be trying to lift people up instead. Otherwise you're just creating another oppressive system.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)

    Idk what to tell you man. You have comparatively infinite access to the proven pathway to lift yourself up but you said you don’t want to.

    It’s okay, just go do something else. I said over and over again I’m not judging you or ridiculing you.

    Also the reason for the struggle to escape the capitalist mode of production is because it incentivizes uneven development and totalizing economic conflict between everyone, not because it is impersonal or keeps people down.

    The above is not an invitation to discuss theory or history, which I will not do, but an example of how you have some severe misunderstandings that should be corrected. That’s why you need to do the homework.

    Or you could just accept a misunderstanding of communism, decide it’s not for you and you don’t need to learn any more and go join a different kind of group. That’s okay. You don’t have to be a communist. You don’t have to understand everything.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    Still putting words in my mouth. Still advocating for a usamerican approach to self betterment. Just because I don't use jargon doesn't mean what I'm saying isn't true. Keeps people down + nuance = incentivizes unequal development. Same formula applies to the other half of our respective statements. At some point you need to get your head out of the textbook and actually start applying it. That's the only way you're going to have any opportunity to connect with people. If you continue with the mindset you seem to have, you're never going to accomplish anything of significance.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    The method of learning I’m pointing you at is the one used by every successful revolutionary communist movement, the majority of which took place in the nonwestern, nonwhite world. You are betraying a deep lack of understanding when you refer to it as a “usamerican approach to self betterment”.

    It is not jargon to employ accurate, broadly understood language when describing things. You are behaving in a way that will drive communist groups away from you when you say stuff like that.

    It is okay if you don’t want to do the homework. You can just do something else. If you would prefer not to change then you don’t need to and can just not organize with communists. It’s not a big deal.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    You didn't point me to a method of learning! That's the main thing I'm griping about! Your advice was "Stop."

    I'm done, fuck off

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago

    I have been suggesting you read, specifically in a group, this whole time. It is a proven method.

    If you don’t want to read then just don’t be communist. There are other groups that don’t care if you understand what you’re doing.

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