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[+] -13 points 1 month ago (48 children)

To determine facts. For them to be able to do that, they need to not be subjected to irrelevant emotional arguments.

Throughout these comments I've been asking what people think if the slogan had instead been "deport all immigrants" - do you have a view on whether a jury should hear a defendant's motivation for spraying something like that?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    That's a little bit misleading, they're supposed to determine the facts based on the evidence, then provide a verdict.

    When giving a verdict they can take into account the severity of the penalty and the circumstances of the crime.

    I think a jury should hear the motivation for the defendant's actions: as a counterexample consider a defendant on trial for breaking their parole (under freedom of movement), but who did so to rescue people from a burning building. A jury would have to hear the motivation to take this into account.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    But there are limits for good reason: if they broke parole in order to volunteer at a food bank or give blood, these are not valid motivations in the eyes of the law. Emergencies are, by common agreement, different than most other circumstances.

    That determination can be made by the judge so that the jury doesn't hear emotional arguments about how important the work at the food bank is and potentially be swayed. It's the same as the judge deciding what evidence is admissible - we don't show the jury absolutely everything because some is likely to lead them to return a verdict we know, through experience and careful consideration, to be incorrect.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (1 child)

    The impartiality of juries only extends to what happens within the courtroom, they must not be swayed by anything that happens outside it. Everything else is fair game, including testimony.

    Juries have the absolute right to acquit a defendant according to their conscience, which has been a principal of law for over 300 years. Your experience and consideration doesn't get to decide for the jury what their decision must be.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago

    I don't think you're really engaging with this... do you think there should be no limits on what evidence and testimony is admitted, just because it's inside the court? Why even have the judge in there?

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (19 children)

    Why would you need a jury to determine facts?

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  • [+] -11 points 1 month ago (18 children)

    I don't have the inclination to quote standard legal theory at you, it's not like I'm on crackpot territory here

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  • [–] 11 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    It's a valid question. If this were about fact finding, a judge should be more capable than random people.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    You, too, are welcome to go and read a Wikipedia article or textbook about why we have juries. I replied originally because the article was bad and because people don't seem to consider why you might keep stuff from a jury. Having done that, if people still disagree, they are welcome to criticise the English legal system and its ordinary justifications without getting me to copy and paste them.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 month ago (7 children)

    Juries shouldn't only decide on what the law says and the facts, but also on their sense of justice applied to a specific case.

    No, I won't justify my answer. Go read a book

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (6 children)

    If you can't justify it, I'm obviously not going to change my mind. I've read many books and done my own thinking. I'm sure it's a huge surprise that someone could have thought about something and come to a different conclusion than you

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (5 children)

    You're welcome to go and read a Wikipedia article or textbook. I'm not going to do your work for you. Tired of explaining and justifying my position and I'll imply others are ignorant instead

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

    You're not listening:

    I’ve read many books and done my own thinking.

    Piss off if you're not going to read what I write.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    You think you're the only one who reads books and does their own thinking?

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago (6 children)
  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    Go read a book. Or Wikipedia.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 month ago (4 children)
  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    Look mate. We clearly have differing opinions. Maybe you don't want to convince me of yours, which is fine, but if that's the case, there's not much point replying. If you do, linking me to other ways facts can be determined in legal contexts doesn't do anything to achieve that, does it? I do already know about judge-led trials, in case that wasn't obvious, and their existence doesn't support your opinion from what little of it you've shared.

    I've had about five billion replies on this, mostly more one liners that show no thought. Try and do better.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    That turned into an opinion pretty quick

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (3 children)
  • [+] -8 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Ah ok, so it's easy - just allow all good things in the courtroom but ban the bad ones. I wish I'd thought of that. I must be a fucking moron I guess.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (18 children)
  • [+] -8 points 1 month ago (17 children)

    Ok. I don't, that sounds like it would lead to a lot of bad outcomes as well as giving an opportunity for terrible people to grandstand and waste time.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (15 children)

    More of a strict letter of the law than a spirit of the law kinda guy, eh?

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (14 children)

    There's nothing in the spirit of the law that is supposed to allow people to air their grievances in court, so no. What I'm against is adding that to the spirit of the law.

    And the reason is because I think there's no fair way to do it that doesn't open the way for awful people to abuse it. And what I definitely am for is fairness.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (13 children)

    The entire concept of the law is for people to air their grievances in court, instead of airing out each other's skulls. Do you think motivation is irrelevant to crime?

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  • [–] -4 points 1 month ago (12 children)

    The prosecution is airing its grievances, not the defence. And motivation matters in some circumstances but this this isn't one of them. Unless you want to implement a fair principle for everyone, which I think would do more harm than good.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 month ago (11 children)

    Motivation absolutely matters in all circumstances.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (10 children)

    Uhuh. Well, you're very confident, yet I'm for some reason unconvinced by your detailed argument...

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  • [–] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (9 children)

    Can you name a single crime where the offense is not either enchanted or mitigated by motivation?

    I can't.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 month ago (8 children)

    Most motivations are irrelevant to most crimes.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 month ago (6 children)

    Really? Then why are voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, manslaughter 1, manslaughter 2, manslaughter 3, murder 1, and murder 2 all separate crimes, when (without motivation) the crime is just killing someone you weren't supposed to kill?

    Kinda sounds like all those distinctions can be collapsed down to murder, right?

    Why have varying sentences for crimes?

    Matter of fact, why is mens rea even taught in law school?

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (5 children)

    That's murder where I fully agree that motivation is very important. That is one single action - killing a person.

    Juries don't pass sentences so varying sentences are not relevant here. This man's motivation should absolutely have been taken into account had he been convicted when passing his sentence.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (4 children)

    Oh. So which of the types of murder should he be convicted of, for accurate sentencing?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    Well. Someone died. You said the conviction requires no knowledge of motivation. Which of the 5-7 separate and distinct crimes of varying severity do we convict them of, and how do we decide without knowing motivation? (Like, "premeditated")

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