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Beware of politicians pinning it all on Netanyahu. This is an attempt to save Israel. (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
75 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

This is nothing new. Liberals have always done this throughout history. They put all the blame on individuals to cover up the root cause of these constantly reoccuring wars and genocides.

Netanyahu isn't the problem.

Israel is. The West is. Imperialism is. Capitalism is.

By: @commie______central

Source: https://www.instagram.com/p/DdQhoDho7R1/

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[–] 10 points 1 month ago (4 children)

Can you explain what I have described as "western fiction," and what I have said that is "Russian disinformation?" Surely you can point to one instance of either of these if that's your conclusion.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

    As you mentioned Donbass, I'll make three arguments with some evidence:

    1. The majority of people in the Donbass did not support seperatism:

    https://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2019/04/12/7211983/

    1. While I agree the repeal of the language law was unnecessary and ill timed (and Ukraine was even advised against it by the EU), it did not amount to suppression of minorities. If you define a minority in Eastern Ukraine as a Russian speaker, they are in fact a majority. When Russia started the seperatist uprising, they did not defend Russian speakers against western Ukrainian speakers, they forced the minority of Russian speaking Ukrainian seperatists to fight against the majority of Russian speaking Ukrainians who wished to remain part of Ukraine.

    https://www.husj.harvard.edu/articles/language-status-and-state-loyalty-in-ukraine

    1. While pro-Russian misinformation often talks about CIA maidan operatives and NATO cyborg mercenaries, the seperatist movement which became Russia's causus belli for the full scale invasion was completely reliant on Russian state funded ultra nationalist paramilitaries and regular Russian army volunteers on "vacation" as a fifth column:

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/04/23/10-years-later-russian-volunteer-fighters-recall-fueling-the-war-in-donbas-a84917

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

    Regarding claim 1, I both fail to see the relevance of the point nor do I think linking a Ukrainian-state affiliated source drawing on a poll based in Kiev is particularly compelling evidence. Even if the numbers were true and properly sourced, this does not mean that secession was somehow inorganic, and it further does not mean that after the beginning of the Ukrainian Civil War, that these numbers did not dramatically change in favor of secession.

    Regarding claim 2, this again does not logically follow. You appear to be erasing Russian as an ethnicity, and instead see this as a problem of language, and not ethnicity. Ethnic Russians form a minority of Eastern Ukraine, despite Russian being more widely spoken even among ethnic Ukrainians. The fact that the fascist forces that had taken over Kiev were popularly and organically opposed by primarily ethnic Russians does not mean Russia forced them into doing so:

    As far as Russian volunteers are concerned, nobody is denying that they exist. Rather, what's important is that it has been the Banderites in Kiev that overthrew the democratically elected president at the support of NATO, which threw the entire country into crisis. This sparked the Ukrainian Civil War, which Russia entered after Kiev escalated the massacres of civilians and accelerated buildup of forces along Russia's border, with missiles pointed directly at Moscow.

    In all of this, there are two things you have not accounted for:

    1. The primacy of NATO and western imperialism in provoking the war

    2. The right of self-determination for the Donbass region, which after a decade of war with Kiev wishes to be integrated into Russia.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 child)

    and it further does not mean that after the beginning of the Ukrainian Civil War, that these numbers did not dramatically change in favor of secession.

    Well I guess they didn't get a chance to conduct any further polls thanks to Russian bombs and bullets. But it certainly shows that before Russia started murdering people, there wasn't support for secession among Russian speakers.

    I both fail to see the relevance of the point nor do I think linking a Ukrainian-state affiliated source drawing on a poll based in Kiev is particularly compelling evidence.

    And now I'll just point back at my previous comment. I guess I was right, there is no evidence I can post that will successfully challenge your belief. Because if it doesn't say what you want it to say, it's not an acceptable source.

    And you know what, at least I gave you the benefit of the doubt and took the effort to engage you with real sources and evidence. You couldn't even give me the same courtesy.

    I want to remain on speaking terms because I don't believe you are acting in bad faith but I need a break from this thread so I'm going to bounce out. Wishing you a good day regardless.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

    There was widespread support for secession, unless you think 41% is trivial? 41% is plenty for separatists to spark a movement, and once this movement is on the ground consciousness shifts to meet the new material conditions.

    As for the point on the poll being from Kiev, I never said they were invalid, and specifically made my points on the assumption that they were valid, because I knew you would claim I was dismissing it. It's not that the source doesn't say what I want it to say, it's that the fact that this was done by Kiev more than lends credibility to the presentation of the numbers being biased! Again, though, I assumed the numbers were correct for my argument!

    I gave you more than plenty courtesy, that's why I assumed each and every one of your sources was correct for my arguments. Dismissing that fact is frustrating because I went to further lengths than necessary to tackle your points head-on.

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