Lemmings, please read the post don't blindly downvote because you don't like the title - this is a debate forum so if you don't want to debate, unsubscribe or just ignore, thank you!


final edit: I guess I overlooked the sentence in the sidebar that says, “A place for theists to come and debate atheists”. I am myself atheist (using the definition in that same sidebar) so please forgive me and treat this as a debate between atheists. Thanks everyone for the great responses so far. The original post follows:

As the title says - if you believe that our scientific worldview is accurate and mostly complete, and that consciousness is entirely explained by the interaction of atoms in our bodies, then you must believe in reincarnation.

Here's the reasoning. If you believe your consciousness now is the same consciousness that existed in your head when you woke up this morning, despite the fact that the atoms that cause your consciousness are now arranged slightly differently and interacting differently, then there's not just one single arrangement of atoms that will cause the experience of "you" - there are many.

If you believe, as I do, that the consciousness that exists in your head now is the same consciousness that existed in your head as a child many years ago, and is the same consciousness as the one that will exist in your body when it is decades older, then there must be a whole set of different atomic arrangements which all generate the same unique conscious mind.

The universe today is actually fairly young. It's expected that it will continue for hundreds of trillions of years. It is a huge amount of time, and if atoms have come together in the right way to produce my consciousness now, after only 13 billion years, then it's reasonable to suppose that over the next many trillion years, the right arrangement of atoms will occur again at some future time long after this body is gone. And in fact, it's reasonable to suppose that this very same consciousness will be produced many many times over.

I do see one other option: consciousness is recreated anew every single moment, and we only have the impression of being a single continuous consciousness thanks to memory telling us what the previous consciousnesses that lived in our bodies experienced.

So which do you believe? You will live for ever, or you actually only live for a split second?


I'm not any kind of Buddhist or anything. In fact I'm vehemently opposed to religions of all kinds. I do believe science offers the best way to look at the world. Unlike religion, science starts from the reality that we do not know anything for sure.

Science questions everything and, from a starting point of pure ignorance, has gradually, cautiously and carefully, built up a coherent worldview that delivers real results - which is so much more than any religion can say.

However there are still very big and very important questions that have not been answered, and which we do not seem any closer to answering - to name but two, why am I me and not someone else, and what will happen to me when I die.

These are extremely important questions, and the honest approach right now is to say, "I don't know" and continue to live in ignorance.

By posing the question of this debate post, I'd like to challenge the seemingly widespread belief amongst atheists that once we die, we disappear as if we never existed. That might be a possibility, but it is far from the certainty that many atheists believe it to be.

I guess I overlooked the sentence in the sidebar that says, “A place for theists to come and debate atheists”. So please forgive me and treat this as a debate between atheists.

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[–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (3 children)

Interesting stuff, thanks for that!

So to clarify, the question I posed here is not something I'm trying to persuade anyone of. I didn't really notice the line in the sidebar, "A place for theists to come and debate atheists". I am absolutely not a theist! I do not "believe" in reincarnation, I do not "believe" in any eternal soul. Nor do I "believe" the consciousness is destroyed and gone for ever after death. These things might be possible, I will speculate about them, but despite the accomplishments of science we have no way to know which if any is in fact true.

Ultimately my position is that we are all ignorant, we know nothing for sure. I am very strongly opposed to religion of every kind, for this exact reason - religion claims to have answers which it absolutely does not have. This certainly applies to Hinduism, and all of the Jewish family of religions (Judaism, Christianity and all its many offshoots, Islam and on and on). In my mind, all those religions are definitely wrong - yes I did say we don't know anything for sure, but nevertheless we can actually be sure that religion is not true, with the same degree of confidence that we might have about the earth being a ball floating in space. Definite, 100% confidence IMO.

There are many other religions that I don't know much about, so maybe I can't write them all off. Is there one which is not based on some degree of unfounded certainty about the unknown? I don't know. In any case, I do sometimes think of a chap I worked with who claimed to be Buddhist, and who said that Buddhists don't believe in god - the way he described it, the world is a mechanical thing, there is no big cheese in control of it all, and karma is not some kind of divine justice being meted out, rather it's just the way the self naturally evolves through time. That viewpoint - of course I may be misremembering it - could possibly be consistent with the "reincarnation" thought experiment of my post.

Which is all my post is, a thought experiment designed to provoke debate and above all to make atheists challenge the confidence they may have that death is the final end of consciousness, and with that everything that ever existed (from the self's point of view, which is the only one that really matters).

Our consciousness may go poof but our existence changed things, and those changes continue to ripple through time. Every action that occurs has an effect. Something doesn’t have to be conscious to have an action. Temperature gradients cause convective movement, for example.

I have to disagree with this position quite strongly I'm afraid. I've heard it in various forms - for instance, the somewhat trite idea that "we don't really die until we are forgotten". I'm sorry but once I'm dead, I certainly leave this planet Earth. I will not care if someone thinks of me. The person I am now, that they are thinking of, will no longer exist. That is pretty clear I think. If someone thinks of me now, while I live, it has no effect on my consciousness, it doesn't make me in some way conscious in that person's head alongside them, does it? That's just something going on in another separate consciousness, it doesn't involve me in any real way.

I'm sorry to all the Roman Emperors who struggled so hard to create a legacy and have their names be echoed in eternity, but the consciousness that referred to itself as Julius Caesar is gone now, that consciousness does not still exist and experience anything just because we all remember his name.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

    I don't know if any given religion is right or wrong. I'm an atheist but that doesn't mean I know. I am an atheist because I lack faith. Why don't I call myself agnostic? Because I don't think it matters if I am right or wrong about it.

    I agree with Thomas Aquinas that science is inherently biased by our imperfect perception of the world, but don't agree that it's a divine mystery that we are failing to grasp. I would strongly suggest the short story Flatland by Edwin A. Abbott as an illustration of how our perception influences our theories.

    I agree with Kant that faith means letting go of logic. And proving something isn't faith. I don't think all religions agree with that though. I know Judism treats faith a little differently than Catholicism, for example. I don't know what the other major religions have to say on this topic.

    religion claims to have answers

    Is this so? Or do they say, you don't need to understand everything just live according to the rules and have faith? Maybe that's an overall "answer" but I don't think they claim to have answers to every question. My k-12 education was in a roman catholic system. At least that brand of roman catholicism didn't think science was incompatible with faith. It did come up in class though, especially as creationism in the states was coming into the mainstream. The answer was "The bible isn't literal, god created everything, he doesn't object to us trying to understand it, but that's different than faith."

    I don't know. In any case, I do sometimes think of a chap I worked with who claimed to be Buddhist, and who said that Buddhists don't believe in god - the way he described it, the world is a mechanical thing, there is no big cheese in control of it all, and karma is not some kind of divine justice being meted out, rather it's just the way the self naturally evolves through time. That viewpoint - of course I may be misremembering it - could possibly be consistent with the "reincarnation" thought experiment of my post.

    Sure but like I said Buddhism (in really general terms) doesn't believe in a permanent soul or that reincarnation produces some sameness. They believe that the act of rebirth changes the nature of the consciousness (details vary between sects).

    It's important to remember that words like Karma have very different meaning in different religions and sects. Two examples are more of a cause and effect vs justice. Karma as justice is more associated with Hinduism, which believes in a permanent soul. Karma as justice doesn't make sense if you have no soul, right?

    I've heard it in various forms - for instance, the somewhat trite idea that "we don't really die until we are forgotten". I'm sorry but once I'm dead, I certainly leave this planet Earth. I will not care if someone thinks of me. The person I am now, that they are thinking of, will no longer exist. That is pretty clear I think. If someone thinks of me now, while I live, it has no effect on my consciousness, it doesn't make me in some way conscious in that person's head alongside them, does it? That's just something going on in another separate consciousness, it doesn't involve me in any real way.

    This sounds like a case of you applying your own interpretation to what someone else says. I'm going to talk about the meaning of that phrase because it is in line with what I believe not because I think I can understand perfectly what the person you heard it from said.

    I don't mean it literally in that my consciousness lives on if that's how you want to define death.

    In my understanding of how the world works, I don't exist to other people unless I am perceived in some way. It doesn't have to be direct and it doesn't have to be real time. I exist to someone who knows the population of my village, province, country etc because I am part of that number. When I die and when the number is updated, I am no longer part of it. I don't exist in that number any more and I don't exist to that person anymore. They don't know all the details, but that doesn't make it less true.

    I can perceive being alive and that perception will end with my death (I assume). If people remember me or if my actions are still having an impact on any consciousness they are still perceiving my existence. None of that is not tied to whether I am alive or not, or whether my consciousness is alive or not.

    The person I am now, that they are thinking of, will no longer exist.

    I don't think anyone can know another person perfectly and the version of ourselves that exists in others heads is a construct. Whether we are alive or dead. The phrase is about our relation to other people not our own consciousness. You have inferred that meaning.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    I’m an atheist but that doesn’t mean I know. I am an atheist because I lack faith. Why don’t I call myself agnostic? Because I don’t think it matters if I am right or wrong about it.

    Yes I'm the same, atheist because I don't have a belief in god or gods. It's possible that something along those lines might exist, but no one knows. The fact no one knows is IMO an indication that either there is no god, or it doesn't care at all about us, or it doesn't matter if we believe in it or not.

    Which kind of rules out any of the religions I know about, and probably most of all the ones I don't know about, as they *do* require a person to accept that god or gods exist.

    I also tend not to call myself agnostic, because many people would take that to mean that I think there's a possibility one of the multitude of human religions could be true. I don't think that at all, I think that we can be completely certain that all religions are bogus with the same degree of certainty that the floor under our feet is real. Yes it's possible that the floor is not real, but we'd have to be "brains in vats" with our entire experience created and controlled by some external entity, and that is the exact same level of deceit we'd be living under if any religion were in fact true.

    brand of roman catholicism didn’t think science was incompatible with faith

    I think this view just means those people don't fully get the implications of science. Science does entirely invalidate religion IMO. You can't both accept and follow the scientific method AND believe in magical thinking.

    When I said religion claims to have answers it absolutely does not have, I didn't mean it has *all* the answers. I was really thinking of answers to those questions which science has not yet made much if any progress on - what happens when I die, why do I exist, what should I do with my life.

    Prior to the modern age though, I think there was a widespread belief that religion was the ultimate source of knowledge and understanding about the world. Why was there so little rain this season - because you did not pray enough or sacrifice enough or fondle the high priest's genitalia tenderly enough etc etc.

    remember that words like Karma have very different meaning in different religions and sects

    I had a suspicion this was probably the case, and I agree it is important to remember. There can be a tendency to romanticise "exotic" religions when one doesn't know the details of them. What you said about karma and the various interpretations of it by different sects reinforces my feeling that Buddhism isn't any different to other religions, and it also makes unnecessary "leaps of faith" and claims to have certainty that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

    If people remember me or if my actions are still having an impact on any consciousness they are still perceiving my existence. None of that is not tied to whether I am alive or not, or whether my consciousness is alive or not.

    I don't understand why this matters in any concrete way?

    Let's say you live your life, do great deeds for your local community, and go on to make great contributions to global society, improving the lives of just about everyone on the planet. Then, you die and are mourned by the whole world.

    Let's imagine two possible scenarios that follow. In one, society goes on to cherish your memory for a thousand years, building fantastic monuments in your name, and countless millions of beautiful people of your preferred aesthetic routinely masturbate over your image for multiple centuries.

    In the other, just as the world is gearing up to commence the weeks of mourning and extravagant public celebrations of your life, the planet is hit by an unexpected asteroid, which causes huge suffering and ultimately leads to the end of all life on earth.

    Neither of those outcomes has any effect on you personally whatsoever. So why should anyone be motivated or comforted by what happens to their memory after their death? I just don't really get the interest in this.

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  • I think this view just means those people don't fully get the implications of science. Science does entirely invalidate religion IMO. You can't both accept and follow the scientific method AND believe in magical thinking.

    You're allowed your opinions. Science doesn't give a reason things are so. That's the job of philosophy. Religions fill the gap for some people. "It just is." fills the gap for myself.

    and it also makes unnecessary "leaps of faith" and claims to have certainty that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

    Are you looking for a religion with proof? Doesn't seem like something that you are likely to find.

    I don't understand why this matters in any concrete way?

    That's fine. It's an opinion. It matters to some people and not to others. I was going to say it doesn't matter to me until I read the rest of the reply...

    Neither of those outcomes has any effect on you personally whatsoever.

    The achievements I am most proud of are the ones that don't impact me personally whatsoever. While I don't care if people remember me after I die, I think I will take comfort in the idea that I have had a positive impact on at least a few beings.

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