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If you believe that our conscious existence is caused purely by the interactions of atoms obeying physical laws, then you MUST also believe in reincarnation. (feddit.uk)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/debate_an_atheist@lemmy.ca
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Lemmings, please read the post don't blindly downvote because you don't like the title - this is a debate forum so if you don't want to debate, unsubscribe or just ignore, thank you!

final edit: I guess I overlooked the sentence in the sidebar that says, “A place for theists to come and debate atheists”. I am myself atheist (using the definition in that same sidebar) so please forgive me and treat this as a debate between atheists. Thanks everyone for the great responses so far. The original post follows:

As the title says - if you believe that our scientific worldview is accurate and mostly complete, and that consciousness is entirely explained by the interaction of atoms in our bodies, then you must believe in reincarnation.

Here's the reasoning. If you believe your consciousness now is the same consciousness that existed in your head when you woke up this morning, despite the fact that the atoms that cause your consciousness are now arranged slightly differently and interacting differently, then there's not just one single arrangement of atoms that will cause the experience of "you" - there are many.

If you believe, as I do, that the consciousness that exists in your head now is the same consciousness that existed in your head as a child many years ago, and is the same consciousness as the one that will exist in your body when it is decades older, then there must be a whole set of different atomic arrangements which all generate the same unique conscious mind.

The universe today is actually fairly young. It's expected that it will continue for hundreds of trillions of years. It is a huge amount of time, and if atoms have come together in the right way to produce my consciousness now, after only 13 billion years, then it's reasonable to suppose that over the next many trillion years, the right arrangement of atoms will occur again at some future time long after this body is gone. And in fact, it's reasonable to suppose that this very same consciousness will be produced many many times over.

I do see one other option: consciousness is recreated anew every single moment, and we only have the impression of being a single continuous consciousness thanks to memory telling us what the previous consciousnesses that lived in our bodies experienced.

So which do you believe? You will live for ever, or you actually only live for a split second?

I'm not any kind of Buddhist or anything. In fact I'm vehemently opposed to religions of all kinds. I do believe science offers the best way to look at the world. Unlike religion, science starts from the reality that we do not know anything for sure.

Science questions everything and, from a starting point of pure ignorance, has gradually, cautiously and carefully, built up a coherent worldview that delivers real results - which is so much more than any religion can say.

However there are still very big and very important questions that have not been answered, and which we do not seem any closer to answering - to name but two, why am I me and not someone else, and what will happen to me when I die.

These are extremely important questions, and the honest approach right now is to say, "I don't know" and continue to live in ignorance.

By posing the question of this debate post, I'd like to challenge the seemingly widespread belief amongst atheists that once we die, we disappear as if we never existed. That might be a possibility, but it is far from the certainty that many atheists believe it to be.

I guess I overlooked the sentence in the sidebar that says, “A place for theists to come and debate atheists”. So please forgive me and treat this as a debate between atheists.

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[–] 1 point 1 month ago (2 children)

I'm no expert.

if you believe that our scientific worldview is accurate and mostly complete

How would we know this? I think there's more we don't know than we do, but that's just a guess based on the sheer size of time and space.

consciousness is entirely explained by the interaction of atoms in our bodies

I do believe this.

then you must believe in reincarnation.

I do not believe this, because I do not believe this:

If you believe your consciousness now is the same consciousness that existed in your head when you woke up this morning

I think consciousness is technically different every moment.

consciousness is recreated anew every single moment, and we only have the impression of being a single continuous consciousness thanks to memory telling us what the previous consciousnesses that lived in our bodies experienced.

Exactly, that's what I believe.

So... Why did you put "you MUST believe in reincarnation" when you already knew about an alternative hypothesis?

I'm vehemently opposed to religions of all kinds.

Good. Magical thinking can be deadly.

I do believe science offers the best way to look at the world.

I agree. We observe, hypothesize, test, and draw conclusions with predictive power based on consistent, verifiable evidence.

Unlike religion, science starts from the reality that we do not know anything for sure.

And unlike religion, science requires some grounding in observable reality. Baseless claims are not accepted.

why am I me and not someone else

Why are you someone else and not me? We can only be who we are, otherwise we'd be something else. I'm not sure what the problem is. We don't know the ultimate origins of our existence or if there even is such a thing, but this is how our atoms came together in this world.

what will happen to me when I die.

Consciousness ends, no more experiences. It's probably like it was before we were born. We won't see darkness, we won't be scared or in pain. We'll just be dead.

These are extremely important questions, and the honest approach right now is to say, "I don't know" and continue to live in ignorance.

Basically, yes. I'll take honest ignorance over supernatural claims. I think belief in an afterlife devalues our real earthly lives. Part of our value is in our unique and temporary nature.

We can't experience anything without consciousness. It is possible our atoms will be recycled in some way and eventually some pieces might be part of someone else's consciousness, but the illusion that is "me" will be gone.

it's reasonable to suppose that over the next many trillion years, the right arrangement of atoms will occur again at some future time long after this body is gone. And in fact, it's reasonable to suppose that this very same consciousness will be produced many many times over.

I'm not sure even trillions of years would be enough, but I don't know how to calculate something like that. Is that really more likely than our atoms spreading out and becoming part of other things?

Without memories, it will not be the same mind. Would the world also reform in exactly the same as it was during our time on it? Our minds are influenced by our environment, and the planet we're on will be uninhabitable in millions or billions of years.

Maybe if the universe is in an endless cycle of shuffling atoms via big bangs, EVENTUALLY we might be us again, given infinite time? It's a very weak maybe, making a lot of assumptions.

By posing the question of this debate post, I'd like to challenge the seemingly widespread belief amongst atheists that once we die, we disappear as if we never existed.

We don't disappear. We leave physical remains. We leave the effects of the deeds we've done, which will ripple forward in time until the universe ends. Maybe beyond? We don't know.

Even if there is nothing after this life, I think this life matters because we are living it now. We want to make decisions that make life better, and I think that includes cooperation. If you don't feed a hungry person, you and they will eventually die. If you do feed a hungry person, you and they will eventually die, but today they get to eat. I think it's worth doing for its own sake.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 month ago (1 child)

    Thanks for your response. Your viewpoint seems somewhat inconsistent however. You say that you believe your consciousness only exists for a single instant and then is gone forever and a new one created in its place.

    Why is there any point in anything in that case? Why do you (I know I'm talking to multiple "you"s as a new one pops in every moment, but bear with me 😁) care about what happens to the other consciousnesses that will inhabit your body after you?

    Do you even believe in free will?

    Why did you put “you MUST believe in reincarnation” when you already knew about an alternative hypothesis?

    It's a debate question. I guess I overlooked the sentence in the sidebar that says, "A place for theists to come and debate atheists". So please forgive me and treat this as a debate between atheists.

    I posted here to get a discussion going and above all to challenge the unfounded certainty that many of my fellow atheists have about what happens after death. Many rational thinkers will casually say that after death, our consciousness is destroyed and gone forever just as if it never existed. That is not at all certain. There is in fact no reason to believe that happens rather than the "infinite re-occurring consciousness" of my thought experiment. Even the view you hold, that consciousness exists only momentarily and is replaced by a new completely different one, is merely speculation. and it is not something which you should "believe" as some kind of religious credo.

    Such unfounded certainty, faith you might call it, is completely unnecessary and should be left behind with religion. It is important to keep your mind open and consider all the valid possibilities.

    To be reiterate, some options are not valid and should be dismissed. For instance the nonsense that the Jewish religions (this includes all flavours of Christianity and Islam) are all built on, and the nonsense that Hinduism is built on. I don't know enough about other religions to mention them by name, but I suspect they are all ultimately based on unwarranted confidence in what happens after death or similar.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 month ago

    Why is there any point in anything in that case? Why do you care about what happens to the other consciousnesses that will inhabit your body after you?

    Because the illusion is very convincing. It's like a relay race. The better choices I make today, the better off I'll be tomorrow. I have experienced suffering in the past. Whether or not I'm the same consciousness, I have access to those memories. I do not want any version of me to experience that again.

    Do you even believe in free will?

    Nope. But as biological beings, our thoughts and feelings are still important to consider so we can make good choices. We are incentivized by natural motivators like fear and joy, which are products of our brains, which are physical things.

    It's a debate question.

    Sure, but the title falsely assumed there is only one outcome. It is not pleasant being told what I must think, especially when it is inaccurate.

    Many rational thinkers will casually say that after death, our consciousness is destroyed and gone forever just as if it never existed.

    I don't understand that point of view. We did exist, even if we later cease. Destroyed and gone forever, maybe. As if it never existed, no.

    Even the view you hold, that consciousness exists only momentarily and is replaced by a new completely different one, is merely speculation. and it is not something which you should "believe" as some kind of religious credo.

    I try to believe what is most likely true based on available evidence. I acknowledge I may be wrong.

    Such unfounded certainty, faith you might call it, is completely unnecessary and should be left behind with religion. It is important to keep your mind open and consider all the valid possibilities.

    I do. Why are you assuming I don't?

    the nonsense that the Jewish religions (this includes all flavours of Christianity and Islam) are all built on, and the nonsense that Hinduism is built on.

    I think it's important to separate race and religion. Not all Jewish people are judaist and not all judaists are Jewish. Judaism certainly has roots in Jewish culture, but christianity sort of hijacked it into something else for someone else, and islam did the same with both.

    I agree with your sentiment, though. The abrahamic faiths are death cults founded on the baseless claim that a god exists. Then they build and build on that baseless claim with more baseless claims, often illogical and contradictory because nothing is stopping new authors from writing whatever they want.

    I don't know enough about other religions to mention them by name, but I suspect they are all ultimately based on unwarranted confidence in what happens after death or similar.

    Most of them. The satanic temple is technically a religion, and one of its tenets is about using scientifically acquired knowledge, but it's more of a reaction to other religions with the goal of highlighting injustices caused by magical thinking. There may be other secular religions as well.

    I don't mind costumes, rituals, meditation as long as everyone participating understands that magic isn't real. Superstition is the problem, and while most religions engage in at least some superstition, I can't make honestly blanket statements about all of them. I have come to dislike the word "religion", though. I'd call my club something else, if I had one.

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