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"Violence is never the answer" unless it is white people doing it (lemmy.ml)
submitted 2 months ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/27603744

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[–] 3 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Ukraine did have nuclear weapons and gave them up only under broad guarantees of continued independence… so… yeah.

I wonder what country has a history of not only using nuclear weapons but using "allied" (vassal nations) on the borders of competing nations to host their arsenal to threaten first strike capability. Might want to look into what actually caused the "Cuban" missile crisis. American nukes in Turkey threating first strike capability and the breakdown of MAD.

Also your Iran strawman was fucking stupid and I shouldn't have bothered responding to it. It was completely unrelated to what I said, even if Iran developed nuclear weapons they wouldn't have first strike capability on the US so it isn't relevant to doing whatever necessary to frustrate those attempting to destroy MAD by achieving first strike capability.

so... yeah...

Also also pointing out what is logical for a force to do in the face of certain situations doesn't mean I support it and especially doesn't mean I generally support any other force taking related but different actions. Really reminding me why I hate deabtebros.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 child)

    Great. I also don't love any country having nukes, so there's already two of us. I was well aware that your point was not about Iran, that's why I made the cynical counterpoint I made.

    I'm also aware of the history of the Cuban missile crisis and fully agree with your analysis of who's to blame for escalating and for de-esalating the situation. Serious question 1: Can you point me to any credible sources that the US was about to place nukes in Ukraine in 2022? I can only find statements by some Ukrainian government officials in 2021-2022 that they want NATO membership or develop their own nukes, but no affirmation by any of the Western nuclear powers and no indication that they wanted both. That also happened long after Russia had invaded Ukrainian territory in 2014 and under continued intimidation of Ukraine by Russia. Serious question 2: Can you point me to statements by NATO officials indicating they want to nuke Russia or Russian positions on occupied Ukrainian territory? Because Putin has made several rather thinly veiled nuclear threats over the last 4 years.

    Edit: Iran is far away from the US, but it's very close to many US allies. Russia, too, has nukes outside its borders (Belarus), and was openly considering to expand that list, though the US is admittedly way bigger in that regard.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

    Great. I also don’t love any country having nukes, so there’s already two of us.

    I think it has been proven repeatedly by the US that if you wish to truly be sovereign nukes are non-negotiable which is a great tragedy. (Libya, Venezuela, Iraq, Yemen, etc.)

    I was well aware that your point was not about Iran, that’s why I made the cynical counterpoint I made.

    Your cynical counterpoint was still stupid as it was about a related but entirely different situation. A country having nukes and being able to bypass MAD are 2 vastly different scenarios.

    As for your second paragraph it's all irrelevant to the point at hand which is that if there is a risk of a country (especially one with a history of attempting to) bypassing MAD against you frustrating that attempt by any means necessary is the logical step to take.

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