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I mean... she's right. (media.piefed.social)
submitted 8 months ago by to c/shermanposting@piefed.social
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[–] 0 points 8 months ago (10 children)

And you believe all of those things were not just possible but could have been sustained? Do you think they could have accomplished all of that without turning the Reconstruction into a generational occupation of the South? And you think it would have been economically viable and that the necessary long-term voter commitment would be there?

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 8 months ago (9 children)

    And you believe all of those things were not just possible but could have been sustained?

    Yes, absolutely.

    Do you think they could have accomplished all of that without turning the Reconstruction into a generational occupation of the South?

    ... what the fuck do you think Reconstruction was?

    And you think it would have been economically viable

    Yes, absolutely. Sharecropping is not actually great for the economy, and the South would remain economically marginal to the USA for decades afterwards.

    and that the necessary long-term voter commitment would be there?

    Yes. The only fucking reason Reconstruction ended in the first fucking place was a deal between the Democrats and Republicans over a disputed election.

    "Hannibal Hamlin is VP when Lincoln is assassinated" is potentially all it would fucking take to extend Reconstruction another 5-10 years, and with greater results in the first 11 years too, for that matter.

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  • [–] -1 points 8 months ago* (8 children)

    First, fuckity fuck fuck fucking fucking fuck cool guys say fuck a lot fucker fuck.

    Yes, absolutely.

    I guess I'll just take your word for it. I just don't see how it would have been possible with almost the complete absence of a strong and expansive federal government combined with a general commitment on both sides to state's rights, and the overall war-weariness of Northern voters.

    … what the fuck do you think Reconstruction was?

    A 10-year military enforcement that was flagging out there towards the end. You'd need to 20 - 30+ years minimum and the creation of a permanent federal admin presence to get to a point where the South's new way of life could normalize. I could talk about this some more but apparently we just say "yes" around here. My fault for not realizing this was a meme community before I posted. For fun, look into what it took to "reconstruct" Germany and Japan post-WW2.

    Yes, absolutely. Sharecropping is not actually great for the economy, and the South would remain economically marginal to the USA for decades afterwards.

    No generational occupation, no long-lasting reform. As wasn't discussed, because what good is conversation, the economics, politics, general belief in state's rights, Northerner's exhausted of war, the fact that the 15th Amendment was supported mainly as strategy for securing Republican political dominance in the South, that Northerners didn't generally favor social integration, all meant what would have been nice to have happened just didn't.

    Yes. The only fucking reason Reconstruction ended in the first fucking place was a deal between the Democrats and Republicans over a disputed election.

    This is you confusing what ought to be with what could have been. My question was very simple: given the the circumstances, what more could have be done? Certainly something, but enough to make modern American less of a "cesspool". Hindsight is fucking 20 fucking fucker 20, fucker fucking fuck shit.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    50 pages into Race and Reunion and it seriously already calls into question your claims about both sides having a commitment to states' rights and notes the Republican ideological commitment in the aftermath of the US Civil War as strongly in favor of social integration, dedication to freedmen's rights, an appetite for vengeance upon a defeated South, and the strong political hand of the Republicans other than Andrew Johnson's inconvenient ass sitting in the presidency.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Those first few years, the Johnson years, were hopeful times. Circa 1870, things are clearly different. IIRC, middle of the book. It's been awhile.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 8 months ago* (4 children)

    I guess I’ll just take your word for it. I just don’t see how it would have been possible with almost the complete absence of a strong and expansive federal government combined with a general commitment on both sides to state’s rights, and the overall war-weariness of Northern voters.

    The idea that either side's partisans had a serious commitment to "state's rights", or that Reconstruction triggered 'war-weariness' in Northern voters is absurd.

    No occupation, no long-lasting reform.

    Good thing that Reconstruction literally was an occupation then?

    For fun, look into what it took to “reconstruct” Germany and Japan post-WW2.

    3 years of serious denazification, 7 of restricted anti-Nazi sentiment, and 13 of anti-Nazi cultural pressure?

    This is you confusing what ought to be with what could have been.

    "The 1876 election HAD to be disputed!"

    Okay, buddy.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    You should read this: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674013667

    And, also this: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674008199

    And then look into how elections changed after The Panic of 1873, but also as a result of public outcry over a half-dozen or so scandals during Grant's presidency (Credit Mobilier, The Whiskey Ring, The Gold Ring, to name a few). "Weary" is an understatement. In reality, a majority of people in the North were done with the whole thing by '75. They wanted to focus on problems at home and were tired of supporting the South.

    And I'm not your buddy, pal.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    You should read this: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674013667

    And, also this: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674008199

    As you wish. I'm picking both of those books up now, I'll read them, and I suspect I'll return with the nagging feeling that you haven't.

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