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People who reject challenging ideas as stupid without engagement are like intellectual nepobabies (lemmy.ca)
submitted 8 months ago by to c/showerthoughts@lemmy.world
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[–] 1 point 8 months ago* (8 children)

The analogy you're providing is fallacious because unlike nonsensical singular statements about ducks (an ethically neutral statement), what we're actually getting is people consistently defending various forms of hate that endangers minorities and marginalized people. They rarely, if ever - and it is my opinion that this almost never occurs - respond to reason. People being purposefully obtuse and heartless within discussions do not really deserve logical vigour or effort. You could try, but it's a waste of time and energy, and it'll just put one in a bad mood.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (7 children)

    Even with an ethical element tied to the statement, an accusation of bad faith is a bit of a non sequitur.

    A: We should torture ducks and masturbate to their suffering because they have three feet.

    B: You are acting in bad faith.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (6 children)

    This is still a fallacious analogy because it's clearly exaggerated/fictitious and nobody argues like this. If it was instead:

    A: We should torture indigenous people by killing their offspring in front of them.

    B: You are acting in bad faith

    Is totally acceptable - anyone arguing something like point A is most certainly not engaging in a ''good faith'' discussion, it's plain common sense that they aren't.

    If you want to argue in terms of strict ''logic'', ''faith'' isn't even something that would ever ''follow'' from a statement anyway, so to say that following a statement with ''you're acting in bad faith'' is a ''non-sequitur'' is a meaningless statement. Unless you're reducing bad faith actors to people coming up and saying, ''hey everyone, I'm acting in bad faith!'' (which the vast majority of bad faith actors do not do) - which is ridiculous.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (5 children)

    I'm trying to discuss things in pure logic so as to emotionally unload the reasoning. Bad faith means they are being deceitful. Whether someone says "Hello. You look nice to day." or "we should torture indigenous people" how can one glean that they don't truly believe that? Though the second one is so outlandish, I would assume it's satire since I assume innocence.

    Unless you’re reducing bad faith actors to people coming up and saying, ‘‘hey everyone, I’m acting in bad faith!’’ (which the vast majority of bad faith actors do not do) - which is ridiculous.

    It's been my experience they eventually do. If someone is telling me I look nice and I take it as a genuine compliment, but they're acting in bad faith, that's going to drive them up the fucking wall that I'm so dumb that I don't assume bad faith like they do.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (4 children)

    someone says “we should torture indigenous people” how can one glean that they don’t truly believe that?

    It's generally safe to assume they mean it, unless proven otherwise. People make hateful and racist remarks all the time, sadly, and it's almost invariably a consistent pattern of behaviour that goes beyond plausible deniability. The line of reasoning you've provided me reads as strangely apologetic and bordering solipsistic.

    I would assume it’s satire

    Even if the hateful remarks are understood to be ''a joke'', I don't think that's any less damning. These are not the type of things to joke about, and most reasonable and/or decent people realize that.

    It’s been my experience they eventually do. If someone is telling me I look nice and I take it as a genuine compliment, but they’re acting in bad faith, that’s going to drive them up the fucking wall that I’m so dumb that I don’t assume bad faith like they do.

    Can you give me an example of something like that playing out on a serious real-life topic such as politics/race/genocide etc?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (3 children)

    It’s generally safe to assume they mean it, unless proven otherwise.

    The sentence you're replying to completely agrees with this. I think you misread it.

    Even if the hateful remarks are understood to be ‘‘a joke’’, I don’t think that’s any less damning. These are not the type of things to joke about, and most reasonable and/or decent people realize that.

    I was thinking in terms of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal or someone adopting a Colbert-style character, like the one from his old show.

    Can you give me an example of something like that playing out on a serious real-life topic such as politics/race/genocide etc?

    With politics, it usually comes in the form of verbal abuse.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    How do you respond to verbal abuse without assuming bad faith?

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