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[–] 215 points 8 months ago* (325 children)

I mean, it's not really bestiality if it isn't sexual. A gynocological exam also isn't fingering.

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  • [–] 43 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (11 children)

    Trying to be "facts forward" so make of this what you will. Source: I was in FFA in highschool in a beef intense-ish area.

    The method of collecting semen I'm most familiar with is when they take a female cow in heat and tie her up, then bring a male bull they want to collect semen from into the same pen. The male will smell the female is in heat, gets erect, and will attempt to mount her.

    As the male is trying to mount the female, people in the pen with the cattle will have a large rubbery "sleeve" on a pole (imagine a cow sized condom on a stick) that they will maneuver around the bull's penis as it mounts the cow. He does his thing in the condom thinking he's inside the female (usually less than 30 seconds) dismounts and then the ranchers have their semen for artificial insemination.

    I've been out of that area for over a decade now so a new method may have emerged since then, but in my Animal Sciences class, that's how we were taught semen is harvested for most livestock.

    Edit: I distinctly recall the "artificial vagina" being on a stick (and laughing about it in class), but best video I can find on the quick: https://youtu.be/-4ma3WeOxbo

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  • [–] 24 points 8 months ago (37 children)

    Unless they are jacking off themselves at the same time, it's not sexual.

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (26 children)

    Unless that women is a literal cow, yes.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Everything born-living has Rights

    Well, we just have to agree to disagree. I think nothing had any rights before humans invented the concept. And even now, any right that can't or isn't being enforced is pretty much useless and not more valuable than a wish.

    By the way, the powerful thing, outside of universal forces are all our minds & together they even more powerful.

    Well, considering that humanity would be totally helpless against universal forces, like a super volcano or a gamma ray burst, it suggests that all our minds are pretty weak in the over-all schema of things.

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  • [–] 24 points 8 months ago (119 children)
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  • [–] 25 points 8 months ago (29 children)
  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (28 children)

    Anti-vegans will go to any depths of depravity in order to deal with their cognitive dissonance. Once, on Reddit, I got a commenter to agree that he would be fine if someone had a dog in a cage they tortured for entertainment, rather than agree that it's kinda fucked up that we slaughter animals because their flesh tastes nice.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (19 children)

    Real question, what if there is no cognitive dissonance.

    Like someone who knows exactly what's going on and says "fuck it, it's delicious" ?

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    In reference to my other conversation regarding the comparison of products that use electronics vs meat consumption, I would ask if "convenience" was a valid justification.

    Given the horrors of the electronics supply chain (slavery, horrific working conditions, cartels etc) im not sure why convenience electronics (phones, laptops, pc's) use would be OK, but meat consumption would not.

    Im not saying the horrors are equivalent and it's not a dig at you, I'm genuinely trying to figure out why one kind of horror is OK, but another is not and how people make those calls.

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (5 children)

    and then , once they acknowledge that ?

    The reason i ask is that I’ve never heard an opinion from someone with the viewpoint it seems you hold talk about what they'd think in that situation.

    and my follow up would be to ask why meat and not electronics (explained below) or textiles or megacorps ?


    In general i struggle with why people place these ethical and moral rubicons in the places they do (i do mostly understand why the lines exist)

    I mentioned in another comment about the horrific shit that goes in to basically all electronics (there are numerous documentaries and articles on the horrors of cobalt mining for instance) and it seems odd that people are ok with that but not the meat industry, or perhaps fine with both of those but draw the line at baby animals.

    Again, i understand why the lines exist, it's the seemingly arbitrary nature of where they are placed for different circumstances that eludes me.

    I'm asking so i can gather opinions enough that hopefully i can understand, eventually


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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Honestly, if someone is truly aware of the horrors of the animal agriculture industry and is totally fine with it, I would be very, very surprised. I have never experienced anyone who genuinely thinks it's okay. Most people take the position of, "yeah, it's really terrible and I don't like it, but..." which I have to live with because that's most people, but even most of the people who agree it is terrible don't really know the full truth and often they don't want to let themselves find out, because they know in their heart if they truly understood how horrific the industry is, they would feel terrible every time they ate.

    If someone genuinely thought it was OK, I would assume that they're a sociopath. Not even in a bad way, necessarily, I have friends who are sociopaths, but I think that's basically the only way you can lack the empathy.

    For the follow-up question, there are a few reasons, I'll outline a few of them, happy to discuss further, if you have questions then let me know.

    1. An ethical electronics industry is possible, whereas an ethical animal agriculture industry is impossible.
    2. It's easy to live a full modern life avoiding animal products. It is impossible to live a full modern life avoiding electronics.
    3. The horrors of the electronics industry take place in third-world nations where we have very little influence over their laws. The horrors of the animal agriculture industry take place in our back yards where we can influence the law.

    I'm not saying that vegans shouldn't advocate for ethical manufacture and disposal of electronics, I believe wholeheartedly that we should. But it's impossible to have an entire industry for making baby animals, fattening them up, and slaughtering them so that we can make money from people who wish to consume their corpses. It is fucked up on the face of it. Melting metal, pouring it into moulds to make circuitry, etc. doesn't hurt anyone directly, it's capitalism and the drive for maximal profits which cause issues in electronics. I'm a huge proponent for the abolition of capitalism for this reason too.

    Hope this helps <3

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    I'm not okay with basically anything that occurs under capitalism, but I have limited time on this earth and I have to pick and choose my battles.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago

    Sure, and that's totally valid, nobody is saying you need to become an animal rights activist. I think everyone should try their best to live their values, and that's what I do. It's not about a quest for perfectionism or anything like that, just trying our best as little humans with limited power to make the world a better place.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    Idk there's two schools of thought on this. One is that you can own another creature with a mind. I find this attitude leads to a lot of very unsettling situations and possibly weird shit.

    The other is that you treat them like a child that is in your custody where you can order them what to do and where to go and what to eat but society expects you to follow certain rules while they're in your custody.

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  • [–] 20 points 8 months ago (19 children)

    it is not a needed treatment for the health and well being of the cow, it is a unecessary treatment forced upon the animal

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  • [–] 19 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    a) we don't b) they can happily fuck on their own, it just makes it harder to exploit them for their body fluids. Nobody cares about the calves, they are just needed for the mothers to lactate

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (32 children)

    Artificial insemination without consent is rape. Natural insemination without consent is rape.

    Cows cannot give consent to humans. No animal can. Hell, even if we discovered another human-like species but couldn't have meaningful communication with them, it'd still be rape.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (29 children)

    No, because owning humans is wrong.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (12 children)

    I can't really answer that because I'm apparently having different moral values in this hypothetical scenario.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    Again, I can't answer the question, because I do not think owning slaves is ok and I can't imagine how somebody that does think is ok, thinks about rape, because that person is not me.

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  • [–] 36 points 8 months ago (37 children)

    If you believe that animals should have rights like humans do, then animals can be raped. If slavery was still legal, would you write "it's pretty fucked up to equate slave husbandry with rape"? Just because we have historically done something, that doesn't mean that what we're doing is in any way moral.

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  • [–] 20 points 8 months ago (31 children)

    Animals can have rights and be protected from unnecessary cruelty without anthropomophizing them and granting full human rights. You're equating full, sapient humans with a species specifically bred for a base purpose without higher levels of thought and expression.

    I don't even think that statement is anthropocentric hubris. If ultra-advanced aliens showed up tomorrow and started domesticating humans for food or some other purpose, I would have the default expectation of them having the same or similar morals. Maybe we'd get access to decent healthcare and good libraries before we went to the slaughterhouse.

    Cows get more rights than trees or crops because they have an ability to express pain and convey emotion. They don't have the same rights as humans because they could never give a passionate argument for suffrage to a jury.

    And to be clear: there are plenty of real, tangible reasons to end animal husbandry and make everyone vegan without even touching philosophy.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    If the advanced aliens had the control over us that we exert over animals then I wouldn't have a choice. And whether I fight or not isn't relevant to their choice to farm me. If anything it's in their best interest to keep me healthy and content until I'm harvested.

    Your coma example is laughable. They're a human. A medical procedure (even if we don't have the technology to perform it) could return them to normal function. Turning a cow into a human-like creature is a different discussion altogether, it would be a transformation at such a fundamental level that we might as well be discussing artificial personhood instead of the ethics of diet.

    If we invented a procedure that could make corn moo would it no longer be vegan?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

    OK, so if negative fucks were a thing, that would be how may fucks in general i give about the actual argument you are having.

    That being said, to me it seems hypocritical to be throwing shade about intentional animal cruelty unless you are somehow posting these replies without using any electronics whatsoever.

    Almost all electronics require materials sourced or processed off the back of rare earth minerals not even mentioning the supply chain and assembly.

    As you said, people are animals too, slavery and workplace mutilation are animal abuse.

    I'm not whattabouting your argument, both things are fucked up and one doesn't cancel out the other and as i said, i'm not supporting either side.

    but the stunning lack of awareness (or acknowledgement) of the hypocrisy of your argument is offensive.

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