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[–] 10 points 8 months ago (57 children)

So you're aware, that's a really fucked up thing to think. Let alone say.

But maybe we disagree only on terminology?

What would you call the act of nonconsensually sticking your dick into your dog, and do you think it's horrible?

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (55 children)

    Raping a dog is bad, yes.

    So a dog is someone and that's what makes it rape? Where do you draw the line for someone? Is it the act of rape itself that's bad, or is it the perpetrator getting sexual satisfaction from it? What if they don't do it for that purpose, but some other more abstract reason? Is it okay then?

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago* (54 children)

    You thought you had me. Your argument is invalid and includes logical fallacies, because you've swapped the original situation, which was artificial insemination of livestock, for having sex with a pet. These are not comparable.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

    Whether a dog is "someone" or not is irrelevant when discussing a completely different situation.

    Forcibly impregnating someone is rape. Artificially inseminating livestock is not rape. Having sex with a pet animal is rape. Having sex with a consenting adult is not rape. Different things actually are, in fact, different.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    So it is the societal and cultural context that dictates whether it is okay or not, and not something actually tangible and measurable? Then I hope we may shift that context a bit to perhaps treat animals a bit less like robots overall, and individual living creatures with their own emotional lives and complexities.

    Tradition, and personal satisfaction is a poor excuse to continue something abusive.

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  • [–] 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

    So it is the societal and cultural context that dictates whether it is okay or not, and not something actually tangible and measurable?

    Yes, of course. Societal and cultural context is quite literally what defines morality itself. There is no universal morality. It is not a physical thing. Even things that at first appear universally "wrong", like violence or theft, are actually justified and morally "right" in some contexts, while not everyone may agree on what all of those contexts are or where the lines can be drawn.

    Then I hope we may shift that context a bit to perhaps treat animals a bit less like robots overall, and individual living creatures with their own emotional lives and complexities.

    Okay.

    Tradition, and personal satisfaction is a poor excuse to continue something abusive.

    Yes, which is why it is good that we aren't doing anything abusive by artificially inseminating livestock.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    For what it's worth, I am not trying to trap you in a "gotcha", I'm trying to follow your logic because it doesn't make any sense to me. The division between OK and not OK seems to me completely arbitrary.

    If say, a large enough population of people were to deem a certain subgroup of humans as livestock, would it then be ethically correct to artificially inseminate them and slaughter them for their meat?

    My knee-jerk reaction is no, but said knee-jerk reaction extends to all animals.

    Similarly, I don't see why there's a line drawn between someone artificially inseminating a cow so that you can slaughter and eat the flesh of them and their offspring, and sexually abusing the same cow.

    I'm not a vegan. I was born a vegetarian, and haven't ever eaten flesh on purpose. Unlike vegans I don't really see a problem with say, caring for sheep as pets, and using their wool to make yarn.

    Yes, which is why it is good that we aren't doing anything abusive by artificially inseminating livestock.

    I don't know. If someone viewed me as livestock, and stuck an implement in me and squirted me full of semen, I don't think I'd care that it's ethical in their eyes.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (48 children)

    Pet animals and other animals are no different in and of themselves, objectively. A pet dog is no different than a stray dog. A pet cow is no different than a domesticated cow.

    The difference you ascribe to these organisms is how much meaning they demonstrate for you, subjectively.

    And since your morals and world view depend on subjectivity rather than objectivity, this opens so many doors into unethical situations that I'm not sure you wanted.

    P.S. You're giving off big psychopath vibes, I hope you know that.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (47 children)

    Pet animals and other animals are no different in and of themselves, objectively. A pet dog is no different than a stray dog. A pet cow is no different than a domesticated cow.

    Agreed. This is completely irrelevant though. If someone was fucking cows, that would also be wrong. Duh?

    The difference in these scenarios is one scenario was artificial insemination of an animal and the other scenario was a person having sex with an animal. These are not the same actions.

    I guess the vast majority of people on the planet are "psychopaths" because the can tell the obvious difference between these 2 things? Honestly, if you cannot tell the difference between this, then you seem more like a psychopath.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (46 children)

    If someone was fucking cows

    That's the exact issue we're talking about in this thread actually.

    Intercourse does not have to involve a penis, vagina, and rectum. It can involve many more things, human related and other.

    Do you think that it isn't rape if you do it to someone with, say, a hand/fist/arm? How about a bottle?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (44 children)

    Good to know we're at the end of the line here.

    You're not willing to define rape, which is convenient for your argument because you get to worm your way out of being pinned down with good arguments. You have an inconsistent world view that undermines your qualifications to speak on this topic.

    At least we didn't waste ALL of everyone's time getting you to reveal this.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (41 children)

    Rape doesn’t have to involve a person. Rape must involve a sentient being that can communicate its wants and desires. Humans and cows are both of those things.

    Yeah, agreed. Go ahead and quote me where I stated that an animal cannot be raped. Artificial insemination of an animal is not rape though.

    You’re losing the argument

    You're not floundering at all.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (40 children)

    We're trying to get to the bottom of why you think forcible impregnation of someone is rape while of a cow isn't.

    You said that dogs can be raped, and specifically pet dogs.

    I pointed out that there are no differences between pet dogs and stray dogs, and likewise between pet cows and stray cows.

    I called you out for holding a subjectivist world view because the outcome of raping a pet dog and a stray dog, or pet cows and stray cow is the same. Something happens to them that they would've have sought out for in the first place if it wasn't forced on them. That is the objective reality.

    Subjective views of reality where empathy doesn't apply by virtue of no personal connection sends society back into barbarism. Your world view is compatible with allowing black women to be raped in a world with chattel slavery because slaves were once though to be property of a white male.

    Plain and simple: your world view is wrong and morally indefensible. If you like it that way, so be it. But you're sick and twisted if so.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (38 children)

    How do we know that artificial insemination isn't traumatizing to cows? Where is your evidence of that? You claiming that rape to cows is harmless is trivializing.

    Comparison doesn't mean perfect equation. Don't fucking put words in my mouth.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (36 children)

    Show me where I perfectly equated humans to cows, cows to dogs, or dogs to humans.

    It's okay to feel uncomfortable and conflicted right now if you can't find it. Perhaps dwell on the fact that you actually do understand that they are the same IN THE WAYS I DESCRIBED while simultaneously clinging to a world view that requires them to be different.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (35 children)

    Yeah there's the discomfort coming out. That's what I thought.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (34 children)

    Cope. You've ran out of arguments, but you're trying to cover your ass to make it look like you're the one that came out on top.

    Keep up the debate if you're not uncomfortable with people pointing out the flaws in your world view for all to see.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (33 children)

    You admitted that artificial insemination of livestock is not equivalent to rape. So yes, I did come out on top, as this was the original point that we were debating. If there is something else you'd like to still debate, you can make another point. But my point has been resolved.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (32 children)

    Artificial insemination is equivalent to rape though. That's been my whole argument this entire time.

    And instead of finding good reasons to refute that, you're doubling down on straw mans and trying to derail the conversation. You're sweating that I won't give up to your bigoted views.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (31 children)

    "Comparison doesn’t mean perfect equation."

    this you?

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (30 children)

    Yes dumbass. I said that IN THE CONTEXT of referring to how humans, cows, and dogs aren't ALL the same. However, humans, cows, and dogs are ALL sentient beings with the capability to communicate and experience pain. In that way, consent is real for them, and artificial insemination via non-consent is rape for ALL of them.

    You're trying to trap me in a cognitive fallacy, when the really fallacy is your inability to understand nuance and context. Truly not shaking the dumbass reputation.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (29 children)

    when the really fallacy is your inability to understand nuance and context

    That's truly ironic. Again, no self awareness at all? Nuance and context is what I have highlighted for you. If you understood nuance and context, then you would understand that things happening in a different context to different subjects are actually nuanced and different. Instead your flawed world view requires all of this to be viewed as black and white and the same, when it is not.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (28 children)

    It's so sad that you have to project your own lack of self-awareness just to make your argument. Clearly grasping at straws here.

    In the meantime, us vegans will keep convincing people successfully that any animal can be raped, and especially cows who are artificially inseminated.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (27 children)

    I have won this argument for a 2nd time because you have no other response besides "no u"

    In the meantime, us vegans will keep convincing people successfully that...

    Honestly, this reads as you trying to reconvince yourself. Just repeat the mantra to yourself, and the cognitive dissonance that I brought to light will go away?

    any animal can be raped

    True

    cows who are artificially inseminated

    Is not rape and you already admitted it is not equivalent to rape. Consider if you would look an actual rape victim in the face and talk to them about artificial insemination of cows as if it were rape and comparable to the real suffering they went through. I bet you wouldn't.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (26 children)

    You keep trying to catch me in a trap as if I fell into one. You're hallucinating.

    Real suffering

    Shows your speciesist bias. How fortunate that you ignore to acknowledge that bias in order to buff up your argument and make it appear stronger than it is.

    Artificial insemination is rape, and cows suffer as a result, just as women do, dogs do, and any other species.

    And for the record, you don't care about women getting raped. You literally don't give a fuck because if you did, you'd understand the parallels between what humans can experience and what non-human animals can experience. Rape to any animal is a violation that can fuck them up, psychologically!

    But your sick, egotistical, selfish world view blocks you from giving a shit. I suspect this world view also extends to other beliefs of yours.

    Go crawl back into the hole where you feel morally righteous. Meanwhile, is vegans will continue to fight for animal rights which includes anti-artificial insemination and freedom.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (24 children)

    Interesting to hear this perspective when theunknownmuncher has been doing the same throughout my thread with them and this entire post.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (10 children)

    you’re sick and twisted

    Yes dumbass.

    Truly not shaking the dumbass reputation.

    for the record, you don’t care about women getting raped. You literally don’t give a fuck

    your sick, egotistical, selfish world view blocks you from giving a shit. I suspect this world view also extends to other beliefs of yours.

    Go crawl back into the hole where you feel morally righteous

    the other user hasn't said anything that rises to the level of these statements from you.

    try to be civil.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (9 children)

    Meet psychopathy with civility? Interesting response.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (8 children)

    you're just doubling down. try some selfcrit

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (7 children)

    I'm questioning your support for psychopathic opinions. Because it is psychopathic to think of animals as lesser beings compared to humans that deserve less dignity, respect, and moral consideration.

    That is what both you and theunknownmuncher are defending. Disgusting.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    i haven't supported any opinions at all.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    You're telling me to be civil while theunknownmuncher's beliefs are allowed room to breathe.

    You take a side when you do this because these types of belief should be silenced. Genocidal, violent, psychopathic beliefs should not be given platforms to fester online.

    Telling me to be civil is muting the response needed to counter these horrific ideas. This type of apologia and these kinds of ideas contribute to furthering domestication and slavery of animals.

    You are being the equivalent of a US Liberal telling Leftwingers to follows rules and procedures to counter Right-wing fascism. Ideas of oppression, no matter the group of people or species of life, need to be shunned.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    I haven't said they're lesser. I don't think they did either, but it's possible I missed it.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (12 children)

    No, I never make personal attacks or ad hominem. The fact that you've stooped to this level shows that your argument has failed and you cannot use logic or reasoning to back it up.

    What does it say that you've downvoted the message "Personal attacks are not welcome here". I think everyone should support that message.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (11 children)

    You made a personal attack when you put words in my mouth and forced me to take a position I never held.

    I'm defending myself accordingly.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (10 children)

    You made a personal attack when you put words in my mouth

    no, they didn't.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (9 children)

    Theunknownmuncher said that I trivialize the experience of human rape victims. I never said anything that would trivialize their experiences. I advocated for broadening the scope of what we call rape to more than just humans. It's anthropocentric to think that only humans can be raped.

    Does this sub encourage bad faith discussions? That seems to be against the principle of civility.

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  • [–] 2 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Theunknownmuncher said that I trivialize the experience of human rape victims.

    i think it's reasonable to say that when you compare a veterinary procedure to rape.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (3 children)

    Artificial insemination is not a veterinary procedure though. It's a forced action on a animal that violates their consent.

    How the fuck do y'all not recognize this.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    Artificial insemination is not a veterinary procedure

    it is. denying it doesn't change reality.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)

    I advocated for broadening the scope of what we call rape to more than just humans. It's anthropocentric to think that only humans can be raped.

    I've never contested this. We agree on this point. Continuing to argue it is a strawman.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    Then why won't you say that artificial insemination IS rape?

    Because that's my whole argument. It has been my whole argument, and will continue to be my whole argument, regardless of how much you try to derail the conversation.

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