Technology

hideshow 13 child comments

parent

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 9 months ago (12 children)

I never said everyone who disagrees with me is a tankie. I said anyone who accuses Mamdani of being a fascist is a tankie. That's a delusion no one but a tankie would hold.

hideshow 12 child comments

parent

[–] mattyroses@lemmy.today 0 points 9 months ago (11 children)

Nah dear, the horseshoe nonsense is something you seem to be partial to. "Tankies", not so much.

hideshow 11 child comments

parent

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 9 months ago (10 children)

Cause I totally invented the term "red fash" and that's not something that a fairly large portion of people already recognize and find to be a helpful concept?

Because authoritarianism, ideological purism, and militarism are sooo different when the people perpetuating them call themselves leftists. Not the same thing at all as the people doing the same things in the name of the nation-state, ethnoreligion, and capital. (/s for anyone who missed it).

Lenin killed a bunch of communists after they beat him in an election. But he called himself a communist, so tankies gobble his dick. Tankies love sabotaging electoral processes so they can claim it doesn't work.

hideshow 10 child comments

parent

[–] mattyroses@lemmy.today 1 point 9 months ago (9 children)

Cause I totally invented the term "red fash"

Oh, don't worry, nobody's accusing you of actually putting enough thought into things to invent that.

Lenin killed a bunch of communists after they beat him in an election

The bait and swtich of "all power to the Soviets" to "ummm actually the Party is the people" was actually Trotsky's particular bullshit, but since the Bolsheviks took it, they own it.

so tankies gobble his dick

And you consider everyone who doesn't swallow your particular brand of ineffective purity a tankie, it seems.

I don't agree with plenty of things from the Bolsheviks - the critiques of Luxembourg I think were particularly apt and prescient. But, with that said, I also don't let my very basic disagreement with that justify alliance with something far worse, the capitalist and fascist forces that the left as a whole opposes. And nonsense like "red fash" does exactly that. And usually seems to follow the Parenti phrased criticism of only allowing respect for revolutions that fail. You're validating horseshoe theory, the most nonsense liberal rewriting of history.

You want, you can go kill all the Bolsheviks you really want to after the revolution. Until then, it's the same counterproductive and idiotic posturing that the Stalinist for Fashion idiots demonstrate, except with a black flag instead of a red one.

hideshow 9 child comments

parent

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 9 months ago (8 children)

Um, no, I've put plenty of thought into it and that's why I said it in the first place. I wouldn't be arguing something that I've never put thought into, because I'm not an idiot. But thanks for assuming that I am solely because you disagree with what I'm saying.

but since the Bolsheviks took it, they own it.

Bolsheviks, tankies, what's the fucking difference? (Yes, I know historically they refer to specific groups, but in practice today, anyone who identifies with bolshevik ideology is a tankie). I don't fucking care about the nuances of trotskyism vs leninism, they were both assholes.

And you consider everyone who doesn't swallow your particular brand of ineffective purity a tankie, it seems.

No, I don't have a brand of ideological purity. That's another thing tankies share with the far-right: you're so zealously committed to your ideology that not only is there no room in your worldview for anyone to hold different opinions, but you also project your fanaticism onto everyone else, so in your eyes anyone who firmly rejects your ideology on rational grounds or otherwise has a more nuanced view, you accuse of the ideological purism that's actually your own.

And no, calling out tankies for being authoritarian (by calling them red fash) is not the same thing as allying with capitalists and fascists. Yet another thing tankies have in common with the far-right: they think anyone who isn't on their side is on the opposite side. Tankies are fucking assholes, fascists are fucking assholes. Both things can be true at once, and I'm not being inconsistent by calling them both out in the same paragraph.

Capitalism is destroying the planet and it's been oppressing and exploiting the majority of humanity since it was invented as a concept, and its precursors have been doing so since before even then. But guess what? I can be a socialist without being a tankie. And that's another thing tankies share with the far-right: they think all socialists have to be radicalized, fanatic, authoritarian communists.

Which brings us back to the beginning of this conversation: I was criticizing tankies for accusing Mamdani of being a fascist, which is a ridiculous assertion on all levels. He's a democratic socialist. Two things fascists hate: democracy and socialism. He stands for both, in a time when such leadership is rare. Definitely not a fascist.

But if in your worldview a fascist is anyone who's not a bolshevik, then we have very different definitions of fascism, and yours is not the correct one. And by the way, if that's what you believe, then you're not as different from the fascists as you think you are (need I repeat that refers to methodology rather than ideology, or in terms any erudite communist should understand, praxis rather than theoria. I'm not so fucking stupid that I think communists and fascists believe in the same ideals. But they believe in the same means which they believe their opposing ends justify).

So no, while I'd be onboard with dismantling fascism, if your proposed course of action is a bolshevik revolution then I firmly disagree.

hideshow 8 child comments

parent

[–] mattyroses@lemmy.today 1 point 9 months ago (7 children)

Tankies are fucking assholes, fascists are fucking assholes. Both things can be true at once

Yeah, because you disagree with two things doesn't make them equal. You want to bitch about tankies, go right ahead. You want to claim they're equal to fascists, you're doing the same stupidity liberals do with their horseshoe nonsense, and for the same reason - it lets you take the status quo as a best of all worlds, since anyone who opposes it is obviously an evil authoritarian asshole.

they think anyone who isn't on their side is on the opposite side

I'm not a tankie, yet you keep referring to me as such. So.

I was criticizing tankies for accusing Mamdani of being a fascist, which is a ridiculous assertion on all levels

It is. You're also pretending some schizo posting is an article in Pravda, which somehow still exists and is the party line. You make a strawman of what tankies believe, then claim anyone who disagrees with you is such, and pretend that's not equally ridiculous.

I'm not so fucking stupid that I think communists and fascists believe in the same ideals

The terms you use certainly imply that. So you should probably stop doing that if you don't want to be considered stupid in that regard.

hideshow 7 child comments

parent

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 9 months ago (6 children)

because you disagree with two things doesn't make them equal

Fascists often say "Just because you disagree with [fascism] doesn't make it evil!" as a way to deflect from their own moral culpability in their belief systems.

you're doing the same stupidity liberals do

I'd rather be a liberal than a fucking tankie. If I had to describe myself, I'm somewhere on the spectrum between social democrat and democratic socialist. If that makes me a liberal to you, then so be it.

since anyone who opposes it is obviously an evil authoritarian asshole.

No, that's what tankies do, accusing anyone who disagrees with them as being evil. I only accuse authoritarian assholes of being evil, and I do that whether they're tankies or literal fascists.

I'm not a tankie, yet you keep referring to me as such.

Well you're pulling a lot of water for tankies by trying to defend them...

You're also pretending some schizo posting is an article in Pravda... You make a strawman of what tankies believe

No, but something doesn't have to be an official party line for me to recognize patterns and trends. Tankies are all over the internet, especially on lemmy, peddling their bullshit. Don't fucking gaslight me by pretending that doesn't mean anything.

...then claim anyone who disagrees with you is such

Again, no, I dont claim anyone who disagrees with me is a tankie. I claim anyone who acts like a tankie, talks like a tankie, posts like a tankie, and argues in defense of tankies, is a tankie.

What you're doing is no different from when the literal fascists say "You can't just call anyone who disagrees with you a fascist!" I don't. I call fascists fascists.

In both cases there's a specific set of criteria they have to meet in order to reach that threshold. And in both cases those criteria include being overbearing, authoritarian extremists, glorifying violence, and being either intellectually dishonest or stunted. Whether they're doing it in the name of ethnonationalism or proletarian revolution is small change compared to those aspects.

And if you're about to label me as an "enemy of the proletariat" just because I'm against revolution until all possible alternatives have been exhausted, just know that that's something a tankie would do also.

The terms you use certainly imply that.

No, never once did I claim tankies are literal fascists or hold fascist ideologies. I said they act the same. From the get-go, I specified that I was referring to methodology rather than ideology. If you're incapable of making that distinction, that's on you.

hideshow 6 child comments

parent

[–] mattyroses@lemmy.today 1 point 9 months ago (5 children)

What you're doing is no different from when the literal fascists say "You can't just call anyone who disagrees with you a fascist!" I don't. I call fascists fascists.

Actually it's not. Because you're calling people who are left-wing fascists. So either you don't know what fascism is, or you don't give a shit. Your nonsense about methodology rather than ideology is, per your own statements, meaningless.

And if you're about to

You really do love playing with your little strawman dolls, don't you?

If you're incapable of making that distinction

No, your thought is just confused and stupid.

Have fun with your gymnastics to justify your defense of the status quo. Your arguments are just "nuh uh! tankies bad! everyone I don't like is tankies!". So nothing of value is lost when I block you now.

hideshow 5 child comments

parent

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 0 points 9 months ago (4 children)

You're so fucking dense. You're the one making strawmen. Just because you can't comprehend my argument doesn't mean it's meaningless.

I know what leftism is, and I know that fascism is a far-right-wing ideology. I've stated that in plain terms multiple times, but you ignore that because it gives you an easier attack surface to pretend that I didn't.

I never said all people who are left-wing are fascists. I said tankies are basically the same as fascists. If you think all left-wingers are tankies, and anyone who's not a tankie isn't really left-wing, then you're a fucking tankie! And you're the one saying anyone who disagrees with you is bad, so stop projecting that shit on to me.

It doesn't fucking matter what ideology tankies hold, if their methodology is "kill anyone who doesn't agree with us," then they're no better than fascists! That's why they're functionally the same in my eyes. You're repeatedly ignoring the nuance of my argument to give yourself an easy target to knock down. That's called a fucking strawman.

Tankies are bad. But I never said everyone who disagrees with me is a tankie. You're just upset that I pointed out that you're acting like a tankie, and that's something a tankie would do. "No, I'm not a tankie! I just believe anyone who isn't a bolshevik is a class traitor!"

You're right about one thing though: nothing of value is lost when you block me. Good fucking riddance.