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[–] 76 points 9 months ago* (121 children)

They're just like maga, "Debate me bro." And then they proceed to reject all the facts and logic that you provide, while getting upset when you dismiss the alternative "facts" that they make up.

Like, what is this? "Argues without insulting us" AND "Argues without tone policing"? So, what, tankies want to be the only ones who can tone police and insult their counterparts in an argument?

Like, pick one or the other and apply the same rules to both sides. Ideally neither side throws insults, and either side can tone police. But don't say "we can do both, and you can do neither." That's the same "rules for thee, not for me" rhetoric that all authoritarians use, whether on the left or on the right.

Tankies are just covert fascists. Prove me wrong.

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  • [–] 21 points 9 months ago (105 children)

    I don't think they're quite fascist because of the economic difficreneces and social wellbeing policies.

    But they are undoubtedly both authoritarian, and that's pretty much the biggest problem because it practically makes the two identical.

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  • [–] [S] 15 points 9 months ago*

    Tankies are sometimes called red fash since they argue in support of fascism as opposed to actually caring for the people. I mentioned it before, Tankies don’t operate on the basis of parties or workers. They are authoritarians, so when they mean CCP, they mean Xi. When they mean Russia, they mean Putin. That's why if you explore their spaces and engage with them, they will almost never actually argue for the workers or people

    They love their "strong" leaders and deify them -- I mean, really, who has photos of a dead dictator in their room? What is that?

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (45 children)

    Equating anarchists to fascists is genuinely in the top five most stupid fucking political takes I have ever heard in my life. What the fuck do you think anarchists want force on you?

    "Fuck these anarchists, they want to get rid of hierarchy and government so I won't have a boot to suck the polish off of." Is what you fucking sound like. The comm is for shitting on tankies. Anarchists are not tankies. Tankie does not mean leftist, it means authoritarian communist.

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  • [–] [S] 11 points 9 months ago (30 children)

    Anarchists aren't tankies, no. But a shocking amount of them, on Lemmy at least, cosy up with Tankies and even argue in favour of authoritarian states, or defend them. From my experience, the average anarchist hates the liberal more than the tankie, despite the latter being in direct opposition to their principles.

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  • [–] 12 points 9 months ago* (29 children)

    Yes, and I actively distance myself from them. Its why I moved from dbzer0 to quokk.au and from Lemmy to Piefed. Anarchists who cosy up to MLs are naive and fail to learn from a hundred years of history. Anarchism is just as incompatible with statism and authority as it is with capitalism. That is not to say I wont work with liberals and marxists, just that I would never trust them.

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 9 months ago (28 children)

    that's actually really respectful to your ideals.

    why do you think so many anarchists, like those from dbzer0, cosy up to tankies?

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (27 children)

    Its scary fighting back. You want allies, and many of them so the odds dont feel so impossible. Its hard not to fall into the thinking that capitalism is the bigger threat, so we should work together against the common enemy. "We'll figure out which communism is best after the revolution" is what I often hear. Issue is, looking at history, we get backstabbed before we get to see the end of the revolution. In the end though, its hard not to end up trusting those you spend time working with.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (24 children)

    I think anarchists have more in common with communists, the issue is that the kind of communists that dominate the spaces are Marxist-Leninists who are the problem. I would be much more inclined to trust a council communist or a luxemburgist than I am a liberal or an ML. The reason being that (good) statist communists at least agree with anarchists on needing to abolish private property and capitalism, but disagree overmatters regarding the state. Liberals still believe in both capitalism and the state. I do not see a situation where liberals would ever allow anarchists to exist outwardly. I do not see it with MLs either. But I could see a very small chance of it happening if democratic communists (like council communists and luxemburgists) were the dominant force in statist radical left circles. Unfortunately though they are not. So unfortunately anarchists are pretty isolated for allies.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 9 months ago (23 children)

    Do you think anarchism is even possible without an apocalypse? It's very telling that, throughout history, there's been no long-lasting anarchist community, unless you consider nomadic towns and villages anarchist.

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (22 children)

    No, I believe it is possible. The Ukrainian Black Army and CNT-FAI came remarkably close. There are other examples as well, but most relevant is the Zapatistas who have existed since 1994 and still exist today. I think it is simply really fucking hard, and we are still learning what works versus what doesnt. I feel it is telling that anarchists are successful right up until the are betrayed and end up having to fight everyone at once. It tells me it takes everyone teaming up to beat us. It tells me we are a threat, and we are a threat becauss we could win

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (20 children)

    "At the Cafe" by Errico Malatesta paired with the documentary "Living in Utopia" (available on Zoe Baker's youtube channel) was what convinced me of its feasibility. But I was also already a Council Communist by then so it wasnt a huge leap for me. 

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  • [–] 7 points 9 months ago (6 children)

    You know, I've been political, and political about the fringes, for a very long time. I remember arguing with anarchists in high school. Ah, nostalgia! And for years and years I argued with anarchists, and I was always frustrated that they seemed to have the core of something good, but kept asserting the strangest things in support of it.

    You know what helped me legitimately understand their views?

    "Libertarian socialism" is, historically, a synonym for "anarchism".

    Replace that mentally every time you see "anarchism", and "state" with "authoritarians" whenever anarchists speak, and the whole thing makes much more sense.

    I've spent literal dozens of hours of my life over the years arguing with anarchists over the singular issue of "How is a state defined", and got nowhere. I still think they're wrong, but I accept that most aren't going to change their views on how to define a state from an internet quarrel.

    But if you get around to the fact that, to the eyes of people like us, what they're advocating for is a much more democratic, much less hierarchical state, which is what their policy proposals for their theoretical community amount to, it shakes out to a much more sustainable model. When I'm sitting here defining state as "Decision-making bodies' monopoly on communal coercion" and they're sitting there defining it as "Unjustified hierarchy", their argument of "Get rid of the state" is going to sound insane to my ears, but 'translated', so to speak, is less objectionable.

    Now, one of the core issues that I still have is that I'm uncertain about the long-term viability of highly-mobile military conflict with a powerful organized state, but that has much more to do with questions of scale and OODA loops than an inability to effectively respond to violence conceptually. As far as internal stability or fending off groups of similar size (or even somewhat larger size, considering that modern warfare in particular privileges the defender), I think the historical performance of libertarian socialist militias shows that it's far from an insurmountable task.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Thank you for this. I think it is a good way of explaining it all. Anarchists tend to have very specific definitions for things (whether they are academically accurate or not certainly varies, we sometimes like to change the definitions of things lol) that tend not to be understood by everyone else. Issue is we don't really have better ways of explaining things. Cause I do feel defining being anti-state as simply being anti-authoritarian does lose some of the nuance, but when people either don't agree with or don't understand our definition of a state that nuance was lost to begin with anyways.

    Since coming over to the fediverse I have always considered you to be an honorary anarchist. Its rare to see non-anarchists defending and supporting anarchists lol

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 child)

    Thank you for this. I think it is a good way of explaining it all. Anarchists tend to have very specific definitions for things (whether they are academically accurate or not certainly varies, we sometimes like to change the definitions of things lol) that tend not to be understood by everyone else. Issue is we don’t really have better ways of explaining things. Cause I do feel defining being anti-state as simply being anti-authoritarian does lose some of the nuance, but when people either don’t agree with or don’t understand our definition of a state that nuance was lost to begin with anyways.

    Of course - it's really just a starting point for people who can't wrap their heads around it. I was in that position myself for years.

    More realistically, and with more nuance, I would regard anarchists as generally being opposed to rigid and enduring institutions. For people like me who still believe in a traditional state, those institutions - even with all their potential for corruption, abuse, and hierarchy - are valuable stores of institutional and tribal knowledge which would be lost with a majority-ad hoc system of government reliant on direct democracy.

    Not only that, but what anarchists would probably regard as my inner authoritarian coming out, people do sometimes need to be told what to do. Anarchism, in my view, scales until the unified group is no longer capable of exercising overwhelming authority (and I apologize for the term) over the un-unified. Cities and even regions can be integrated into an anarchist framework, but I'm of the opinion that it begins to fall apart beyond that, as people of different communities struggle to equate each other as exactly as important as themselves/their neighbors. The NIMBY problem on a large scale.

    While I find the State useful in more situations than just this, it's here where I find the traditional State truly necessary in cracking the whip on enforcement of regionally unpopular initiatives. People who find agreement on abstract principles can still become very 'loose' with those principles when it comes to being applied to them. I'm unconvinced that anarchist federative models have the same capacity to enforce static decision-making like that without coming to resemble a traditional state in basic form and function in the long-term.

    That being said, I'd also be happy to be proven wrong - even if the theoretical display doesn't impress me enough to prefer it over a traditional state, I'm happy to see other forms of power structure (that aren't inherently ultra-shitty) remind the traditional state it's not the only game in town.

    Since coming over to the fediverse I have always considered you to be an honorary anarchist. Its rare to see non-anarchists defending and supporting anarchists lol

    I consider that high praise! 🙏

    While I definitely do have disagreements with even the basic end-goal of anarchists, I generally regard anarchism as both possible and desirable compared to present capitalist society; and that the anarchist undertaking of creating parallel systems of low-hierarchy power structures outside of the state to be both moral and necessary for a just, non-anarchist society. In my thinking, all power is based on implicit negotiation; having alternatives to state institutions for community services (including charity, regulation, security, etc) strengthens the negotiating position of the people relative to the state, which is almost always good.

    We may disagree on whether to take Ol' Yeller behind the shed and put the State down for good, but there's a lot of room for cooperation leading up to that 'end-decision' - starting with restraining the ill-trained dog so he can't savage anyone he damn well pleases.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Hey! Those are excellent ways of describing it. I kind of neglected the fact that it's democratic in the extreme. Everything is voted on.

    And yes, the concept of a State is non-existent.

    Ukraine has had a long history of it for example. It never quite died either. And even plays a role in today's conflict against Russian invasion.

    Right at the start of the 2022 offensive, everyone east of Kiev was making improvised weapons, barricades etc, because they knew Russia would roll over them before the Ukrainian Military had moved enough personnel to evacuate.

    They didn't do it because it was their job, they didn't do it for a sense of Ukrainian pride. They did it because it was their home.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (11 children)

    We do it by empowering the communities itself, and teaching them to liberate themselves. Its not perfect, but afterall no solution is. You still get cases like the atrocities  individuals of the Black Army committed against the Mennonites, and the ones committed by the CNT-FAI against nuns and priests. They are horrible actions, and while I still support and admire the groups I still condemn those actions and wish to learn from and prevent them in the future. And not that I am excusing it with whataboutism (just trying to avoid anybsort of singling out of anarchists about this), but this is not a unique problem with anarchists. Every group is guilty of doing similar stuff, and I feel anarchists are better about reducing, resisting, and condeming those actions than other groups. I think part of it is simply the culture and beliefs of anarchists that helps prevent these kinds of acts, but also like I said the community empowerment that comes with anarchism. I think it is also important to build a culture of accountability within anarchist groups, and to develop structures that reinforce that. What all of that looks like is stuff we are still figuring out and learnjng from, but we have progress made in that regard. "What about the rapists" is a good book discussing ideas on community safety and justice without cops, which some could be extrapolated to revolutionary militias

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    To me it means liberals will side with fascists when push comes to shove. I wont fail to recognize that there are examples of liberals resisting fascism, but you also have many more instances where they enable, defend, or outright join fascists. Hitler drew a lot of inspiration from the US's Jim Crow laws, and Hitler was chosen as New York Times Person of the year. The social democrats of Weimar Germany used proto-fascist to eradicate a communist revolution. The Weimar Republic is who put Hitler in power. The Kingdom of Italy as well allowed Mussolini into power. You also have situations like Pinochet and Franco. Pinochet being put into power by the US, and Franco's fascist government being left untouched and allowed to exist.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    That's all true, but it's also worth noting that fascism was new back then, or at least in name and during the early 1920s it wasn't entirely in power. (Just need to make a disclaimer that fascism is awful, stupid and that fascists deserve what happened to them and what will happen to them. Punch a nazi, counting or not counting gang violence, etc)

    But does today's liberal stand with fascists when push comes to shove? It appears to me that liberals in the US, where fascism is almost out of its proto-stage, seem to oppose it. The rest of the democratic world also seems to have decided not to replicate the turmoil the US is pushing forth, with overwhelming victories for the comparatively progressive parties in each nation.

    To me Russia is largely a fascist state, my Russian pals can't talk about certain topics and often need to keep their queer identity secret. Yet it is the tankies who are largely supportive of Russia, particularly Putin.

    So is the phrase still true despite this? Or is it perhaps authoritarian projection?

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    I do agree that the US populace is largely pathetic and cowardly, Tankies absolutely included, and it's one of the reasons I no longer take people from the US seriously when talking to them. Maybe a more apt phrase is 'Scratch a coward and a fascist bleeds.'

    But what of the larger world? Is the phrase still true? Because when I hear liberal, I assume the status quo, the average European, the average Commonwealth nation, someone who values democracy, individualism and equality.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Anarchists threaten the status quo far more than a fascist. Liberals still want government, hierarchy, property. And as long as you are not a minority or dissident, fascists will not threaten that. Anarchists however do. How an anarchist expresses individualism, equality, and democracy is fundamentally different from a liberal's. Do I think all liberals would side with a fascist over an anarchist? No, but I would probably bet on it. 

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Oh, I'm sure all that income equality was so beneficial to all the victims who died in the holodomor and other atrocities committed by the soviet union.

    Also, try using a color scheme that doesn't burn the eyes. I'm not giving myself a migraine just so you can lick soviet boots.

    By the way, I'm not against socialism; I'm against tankies. You would know the difference if you were well-versed in "theory," wouldn't you?

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

    Wonderful graphs, thank you. But how can you ensure that the state, which now has unopposed power, didn't simply lie about how much they have? Personally I find it telling that those in state power never walk the streets of the peasants or live in the same houses, no, they have their palaces and mansions and armed military guards and personal army protecting them, and you're telling me there's income equality there?

    Not convinced.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (19 children)

    it might be that the anarchists you have met are not anarchists at all. It sounds much more like the communists I know.

    I can think of one in particular, a very arrogant and loud-mouthed, self-proclaimed anarchist, who if he had his way would force everyone to be vegan.

    I understand animal rights, and I myself have been vegetarian for a few years. But if he's truly an anarchist, then how does he expect to enforce veganism on everyone? Just seems cognitively dissonant...

    For that matter, how do anarchists plan to stop racists and homophobes from doing racist and homophobic things? It just seems short-sighted, especially from people who profess to be vulnerable minorities. You'd think they would at least want a government that protects them and ensures their equal rights, no?

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    When you encounter this anarchist, I implore you to question them on how China treats animals. Very curious to see what will happen.

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  • [–] 8 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Just some inarticulate posturing and vague implications that I don't know what I'm talking about, probably.

    Like when someone else wore a PLA hat and I asked him how many civilians died in the great leap forward, clearly the reason he didn't have an answer was because I was the ignorant one. "Oh, you wanna talk to me about the great leap forward?" Acting all insulted

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (14 children)

    Yeah as soon as the word "force" comes into play, he's not an anarchist.

    A lot of anarchy depends on the concept of equity. If someone in particular is against the equity of his peers, then that individual would likely be kicked out of the collective for violating that tenet.

    More than likely, the racist/homophobic individual was never allowed to join the group. If that racist/homophobe was a child raised in the anarchist society and held these views as an adult, then the real question becomes why did that individual form those beliefs if they were intolerable to the group. Action needs to be taken there.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    No, though some aspects are shared.

    Liberalism has very different views in terms of economics.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    They also don't really have any "social wellbeing policies". They spend almost zero time discussing those, and almost all of the time discussing how evil "the libs" are.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (19 children)

    That's really more of what I've seen in the communist communities rather than anarchists.

    But they too have a tendency of being all or nothing.

    The ones who demand "social order" truly aren't anarchist anyway. The whole point of anarchy is to approach an egalitarian community that rejects the idea of unearned authority.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Sometimes I see people say stuff like "Anyone who says 'the situation is more complex than that' is just using it as a cop out because they don't want to face the solution"

    And I'm like, can we not normalize seeking simple solutions to complex problems? That's partly what got us here today, and every "simple solution" that people try only ends up adding another layer of complexity to the problem for someone else to try to figure out later.

    Anyone who thinks the world and its problems aren't complex is too ignorant to be in a position to demand everyone accept their simplistic solutions.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    One of the most telling social trends I've noticed of late, is how now for some reason it's viewed as a weakness to acknowledge the other's viewpoint that you don't agree with, or even to preemptively discuss counterargument to your own point. Both of which things that are classically encouraged in literature on healthy debate skills.

    But now, as soon as you say "I hear that you're saying _____, but..." it's like you get cut off and they think the conversation is over and they just won. Like, no, not at all. Why is society rewarding that behavior?

    Another one is addressing intrinsic biases. Like, you practice self-awareness by saying "I may be biased in this respect, but..." and then they go, "See! You're biased! I win!" Like they're missing the whole point that everyone has biases, and by pretending to be unbiased they're actually revealing the extent of their ignorance and lack of self-awareness. But for some reason society today tends to favor the people who don't admit to having biases, as if it means that person is the unbiased one.

    It's infuriating, but I don't even try to talk to people anymore. There's just no good faith discussion left to be had in the world, it seems...

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (5 children)

    Hence why I mention the communist thing.

    Anarchy and communism have a LOT of overlap.

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  • [–] 6 points 9 months ago (4 children)

    In which context? I'm not gonna summarize every argument I've ever had with a tankie for you. Be reasonable.

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    And you're posting in a thread that's not. Your point? I'm not here to pick up goat's debate. I'm not even talking about that thread. I'm talking about literally every argument that I've ever personally had with a tankie, and I'm not going to summarize them all for you.

    Also, you can hardly blame him for engaging with you on a post that literally said "Gee, I wish someone who isn't a tankie would engage with us." And it looks like y'all didn't even get to the debate part, because you just told him to fuck off as soon as he said he would.

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (7 children)

    There's no rationally debating them. It's like trying to rationally debate maga. They'll ignore everything you say and make up scenarios that would make you the clear loser, and then bludgeon the strawman to death with insults and repeat themselves over and over no matter how many times you point out how irrational they're being...

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  • [–] 5 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    "What is not reasoned in, cannot be reasoned out."

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Something all too common with extremists. It's fruitless to argue with facts and logic™ since they live in a different reality.

    The only way to get through to them is playing therapist and figuring out their emotions and getting them to question themselves. Questions like, why does China have a stock exchange? Why can't you be gay in Russia? Why did Lenin say don't let Stalin take control? That's why they band together so much and silence all opposition that ask questions, they can't risk thinking inwards. They need to affirm each other, while non-extremists don't need to, since reality is on their side.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I agree mostly with that but i also, personally, need to keep on top of adequately questioning my own reasoning.

    Just because i think reality is on my side doesn't make it automatically true, I'm not immune to propaganda or fallacious logic.

    Even worse (for me personally) is the trap of assuming my subjective (and relatively well reasoned ) correctness in other conversations carries over in to whatever conversation I'm having right now.

    A sense of conversational and intellectual superiority can be an insidious path to closed mind.

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