▲ -59 ▼ Average convo with liberals when Ukraine comes up (lemmy.ml) submitted 11 months ago by bubblybubbles@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml 69 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 10 months ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Garfield@feddit.uk 0 points 10 months ago (1 child) A few corrections. Ukraine is not run by "Banderites" or neo-nazis. Far-right parties have consistently received low-single-digit percentages of the vote for many years now (I found one small spike in the stats, but that seems like a moment-in-time protest vote, dropping off again) and they hold no real power. Zelensky was elected by a large nationwide majority, including in the east (with international observers). No blaming, but there's no credible evidence that Maidan was a nationalist "false flag." Multiple investigations found that responsibility was complex and disputed, and not a takeover by extremists. Donbas is historically multilingual (russian, ukranian, greeks, germans, jews, tartars, etc.) and not an "indigenous Russian" region, and no international body has found Ukrainian policy to be ethnic cleansing. Minsk violations were documented on all sides by the OSCE, including Russia and Russian-backed forces. Labeling modern Ukraine as "neo-Nazi" relies on WWII rhetoric, and not present-day political reality. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Garfield@feddit.uk -1 points 10 months ago Listing articles about the existence of far-right groups does not prove that Ukraine is "run by neo-Nazis". They are two distinct claims. Far-right parties in Ukraine have never held power and have polled 1–3% nationally since 2014. Zelensky is Jewish, ran on an anti-nationalist platform, and defeated the nationalist vote overwhelmingly. Every country has radical groups. Russia has openly fascist and ultranationalist movements (e.g., Rusich, Wagner’s ideological core, Imperial Legion) that are far closer to the state than anything comparable in Ukraine. Azov began as a volunteer unit in 2014 and was restructured, depoliticized, and made subordinate to the National Guard, and its original political wing collapsed electorally. Its membership was always a mixed group, not an ideological army. There would have been no Azov, no mass mobilization, and no expanded Ukrainian military at all without Russia’s invasion. Russia did not respond to extremism ... it created the conditions for militarization. Bandera is a contested historical symbol and not state ideology. Modern Ukrainian law, elections and governance are civic and not ethno-nationalist. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] Garfield@feddit.uk 0 points 10 months ago (1 child) A few corrections. Ukraine is not run by "Banderites" or neo-nazis. Far-right parties have consistently received low-single-digit percentages of the vote for many years now (I found one small spike in the stats, but that seems like a moment-in-time protest vote, dropping off again) and they hold no real power. Zelensky was elected by a large nationwide majority, including in the east (with international observers). No blaming, but there's no credible evidence that Maidan was a nationalist "false flag." Multiple investigations found that responsibility was complex and disputed, and not a takeover by extremists. Donbas is historically multilingual (russian, ukranian, greeks, germans, jews, tartars, etc.) and not an "indigenous Russian" region, and no international body has found Ukrainian policy to be ethnic cleansing. Minsk violations were documented on all sides by the OSCE, including Russia and Russian-backed forces. Labeling modern Ukraine as "neo-Nazi" relies on WWII rhetoric, and not present-day political reality. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Garfield@feddit.uk -1 points 10 months ago Listing articles about the existence of far-right groups does not prove that Ukraine is "run by neo-Nazis". They are two distinct claims. Far-right parties in Ukraine have never held power and have polled 1–3% nationally since 2014. Zelensky is Jewish, ran on an anti-nationalist platform, and defeated the nationalist vote overwhelmingly. Every country has radical groups. Russia has openly fascist and ultranationalist movements (e.g., Rusich, Wagner’s ideological core, Imperial Legion) that are far closer to the state than anything comparable in Ukraine. Azov began as a volunteer unit in 2014 and was restructured, depoliticized, and made subordinate to the National Guard, and its original political wing collapsed electorally. Its membership was always a mixed group, not an ideological army. There would have been no Azov, no mass mobilization, and no expanded Ukrainian military at all without Russia’s invasion. Russia did not respond to extremism ... it created the conditions for militarization. Bandera is a contested historical symbol and not state ideology. Modern Ukrainian law, elections and governance are civic and not ethno-nationalist. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 point 10 months ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] Garfield@feddit.uk -1 points 10 months ago Listing articles about the existence of far-right groups does not prove that Ukraine is "run by neo-Nazis". They are two distinct claims. Far-right parties in Ukraine have never held power and have polled 1–3% nationally since 2014. Zelensky is Jewish, ran on an anti-nationalist platform, and defeated the nationalist vote overwhelmingly. Every country has radical groups. Russia has openly fascist and ultranationalist movements (e.g., Rusich, Wagner’s ideological core, Imperial Legion) that are far closer to the state than anything comparable in Ukraine. Azov began as a volunteer unit in 2014 and was restructured, depoliticized, and made subordinate to the National Guard, and its original political wing collapsed electorally. Its membership was always a mixed group, not an ideological army. There would have been no Azov, no mass mobilization, and no expanded Ukrainian military at all without Russia’s invasion. Russia did not respond to extremism ... it created the conditions for militarization. Bandera is a contested historical symbol and not state ideology. Modern Ukrainian law, elections and governance are civic and not ethno-nationalist. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Garfield@feddit.uk -1 points 10 months ago Listing articles about the existence of far-right groups does not prove that Ukraine is "run by neo-Nazis". They are two distinct claims. Far-right parties in Ukraine have never held power and have polled 1–3% nationally since 2014. Zelensky is Jewish, ran on an anti-nationalist platform, and defeated the nationalist vote overwhelmingly. Every country has radical groups. Russia has openly fascist and ultranationalist movements (e.g., Rusich, Wagner’s ideological core, Imperial Legion) that are far closer to the state than anything comparable in Ukraine. Azov began as a volunteer unit in 2014 and was restructured, depoliticized, and made subordinate to the National Guard, and its original political wing collapsed electorally. Its membership was always a mixed group, not an ideological army. There would have been no Azov, no mass mobilization, and no expanded Ukrainian military at all without Russia’s invasion. Russia did not respond to extremism ... it created the conditions for militarization. Bandera is a contested historical symbol and not state ideology. Modern Ukrainian law, elections and governance are civic and not ethno-nationalist. permalink fedilink source parent
