▲ 200 ▼ My Venezuelan friends say Maduro is a dictator (crazypeople.online) submitted 11 months ago by hamid@crazypeople.online to c/memes@lemmy.ml 157 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 23 points 11 months ago (34 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 34 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago Venezuelan communes and participatory democracy is flourishing. In addition, massive social programs have been implemented, focusing on housing, food security, and poverty eradication I think this really needs to be stressed. Venezuela is a country building Socialism. Maduro and the PSUV is in power because of a genuinely incredible mass movement of communes, neighborhood committees, and other organs of grassroots democracy. This is qualitatively different from say, any of the Gulf oil monarchies I highly recommend the books Building The Commune: Radical Democracy in Venezuela, and Commune or Nothing: Venezuela's Communal Movement and Its Socialist Project, for a look at these aspects of Venezuelan politics, because it's often papered over in discussions about the country. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago (1 child) Man i remember when I was a "damn, the US and it's enemies are both evil" guy. I thought i was done thinking about the world permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago And we thought we were so enlightened. This is the last layer of the imperial core propaganda onion: that the “other side” is no better, which leads to apathy and disengagement. permalink fedilink source parent [+] Tinidril@midwest.social -9 points 11 months ago (4 children) Russia isn't imperialist, it has no colonies nor neocolonies Yeah, tell that to Crimea, the Donbas, or even Siberia or the puppet states like Belarus, Georgia and Moldova. Russian neo-colonialism is all over Africa. China isn't imperialist either, it's a socialist country wituout any financial domination of the state or economy. China is a kinder imperialist, but they are using largely the same playbook that the west used in Africa, including debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty and regulation, and undermining labor movements. They also have a mix of socialism and capitalism, sometimes getting the best of both, and sometimes the worst. They definitely dominate the state economy through control of banking and the use of capital controls to direct funding to national priorities. The current real estate crisis and "ghost cities" are a pretty obvious example. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children) Russia isn’t imperialist, it has no colonies nor neocolonies Yeah, tell that to Crimea, the Donbas Are you kidding me? The people in Crimea and the Donbas wanted to join Russia, to protect them from Ukraine, which had been killing them since 2014. Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences. The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties? Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia. Internationalist 360°, 2022–2024: History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide China is a kinder imperialist, but they are using largely the same playbook that the west used in Africa, including debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty and regulation, and undermining labor movements. The Atlantic, 2021: The Chinese ‘Debt Trap’ Is a Myth What is China doing to undermine local sovereignty or labor movements in Africa? The current real estate crisis What “current” real estate crisis? The Chinese state intentionally popped the real estate bubble over a year ago, making the capitalists eat their losses. Reuters: China Evergrande ordered to liquidate in landmark moment for crisis-hit sector Bloomberg: China Reiterates Stance That Homes Are Not for Speculation CNBC: China’s housing minister says real estate developers must go bankrupt if necessary “We will scale up the building and supply of government-subsidized housing and improve the basic systems for commodity housing to meet people’s essential need for a home to live in and their different demands for better housing,” an English-language version of the report said. Compare that to Obama, who bailed out the private banks at the expense of people with home mortgages, banks that knowingly wrote those bad mortgages. Michael Hudson, 2023: Why the Bank Crisis isn’t Over The financial sector is the core of Democratic Party support, and the party leadership is loyal to its supporters. As President Obama told the bankers who worried that he might follow through on his campaign promises to write down mortgage debts to realistic market valuations in order to enable exploited junk-mortgage clients to remain in their homes, “I’m the only one between you [the bankers visiting the White House] and the mob with the pitchforks,” that is, his characterization of voters who believed his “hope and change” patter talk. “ghost cities” are a pretty obvious example. Reuters, 2015: The myth of China’s ghost cities Wherever you’re getting your information from, it’s dogshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Tinidril@midwest.social -11 points 11 months ago* (1 child) I see you have your cut and paste propaganda all ready to go there. The people in Crimea and the Donbas wanted to join Russia, to protect them from Ukraine, Sounds an awful lot like claiming Iraqis wanted the US to overthrow Sadam and would welcome it with open arms. It worked out about the same too, except for the Russian military embarrassing themselves. Even taken at face value, all you are doing is justifying the imperialism, not showing it doesn't exist. China is the biggest debt holder nation in the world. Zambia just had to default on loans for infrastructure that largely served Chinese needs, and Kenya and Ethiopia are not far behind. Meanwhile, the DRC is falling into debt paying for infrastructure to ship Copper and Cobalt to Chinese. China has not been as abusive as the west was, but they aren't that much better either. It's still the same tactics. New Labor Forum: Chinese Investments in Africa: Twenty-First Century Colonialism? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago If you don't like cut and paste responses, stop having cut and paste thoughts. permalink fedilink source parent [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 months ago You also have no evidence of “debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty,” or “undermining labor movements.” Their evidence is that the TV told them this many times over years, enough times that it’s true. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago (25 children) Russia isn't imperialist Why do you think they're invading Ukraine. Sparkles and rainbows? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 25 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 22 points 11 months ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -19 points 11 months ago (2 children) Nato is not a risk to russia, and never has been. Nato is a defensive alliance. The only way they're a risk is if russia plans to attack them first. Anyone suggesting that nato provoked it is on something permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) Yeah man ask Libya and Yugoslavia how defended they feel Nato is a defensive alliance just like cops are there to help you permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago NATO expansion: George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine NATO in general: The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world” Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It permalink fedilink source parent [–] Weydemeyer@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago (21 children) Invading / starting a war is not the same thing as imperialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [+] Brosplosion@lemmy.zip -11 points 11 months ago (5 children) It literally is? They are expanding power over a foreign nation via military means. That's basically the definition of imperialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Weydemeyer@lemmy.ml 17 points 11 months ago* You’re talking about simple conquest. By that definition any offensive side in a war is imperialist, which is nonsensical as that means nearly every war in human history involved at least one “imperialist” power. Imperialism is system of establishing and maintaining hegemony over large areas for the benefit of an elite (capital in modern times, patricians in ancient times, etc) within a metropole (probably too simple of a definition but it works). The Romans were an empire not just because they had an emperor and not because they conquered lands, but because they controlled lands from Spain to Syria and wealth flowed from those lands into Rome. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (2 children) The Soviet Union expanded their power over Germany via military means. WW2 was simply an inter-imperialist war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 15 points 11 months ago You jest but this is genuinely what libs believe permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago It was an inter-imperialist war except on the eastern front, where it was a war to destroy communism. The capitalist Allies and the USSR were an alliance of convenience, which is why the West made the USSR its enemy the moment the war ended. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 10 points 11 months ago The imperialist D-Day landings permalink fedilink source parent [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -16 points 11 months ago (14 children) Invading for territory gain is absolutely synonymous with imperialistic tendencies permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago (9 children) The Marxist definition of imperialism is more specific than just "big country invade small country". In, Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism Lenin lays out five aspects of what makes Imperialism: the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy; the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed. The question of "Is Russia Imperialist" isn't a moral one, it's a technical one. So if Russia were do to something that we all agree is morally reprehensible, that's a separate concern from whether Russia is imperialist. The technicality revolves around whether Russia has developed an oligarchy of Financial Capital, such that its invasion of Ukraine or other flexes of its influence, perpetuates the export of Russian finance capital around the world. As it stands now, I don't think that's currently the case, but with Marxism being a dialectal philosophy, I do wonder if this war will accelerate that merging of Bank and industrial capital that Lenin discusses. It's a Bourgeois states, and there's financial capital in there somewhere that absolutely has an interest in forming a Russian imperialism. So when people say "Russia isn't Imperialist", this is what's being referred to. You can take it or leave it, but it's worth getting into the weeds a bit, so we aren't all talking passed each other permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago (8 children) Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is. A more standard definition is far more reasonable to use. However, your comment is very informative to me, I'm glad you took the time to write this out permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is Marxism isn't the only analytical lens out there, no. But the people you're arguing with are working with that definition, which is why I took the time to clarify. Thank you for appreciating my effort post though lol permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children) "A more standard definition" than the one that's been in use for over a hundred years and accurately describes the dynamic in question? The definition liberals use is both new and entirely vibes-based. It is useless for anything but bringing geopolitical conversations to a screeching halt with murky equivocations. The Marxist definition exists to clarify, while the liberal definition exists to obscure. It's the "socialism is when the government does stuff" of international relations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago* (5 children) The Marxist definition is strictly different, not a clarification. The Marxist one posits only capitalism can be imperialist, something I would say is strictly incorrect permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (1 child) A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago Ok but the person above just denied that a square was a rectangle permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 11 points 11 months ago (1 child) Look at those goalposts fly permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -8 points 11 months ago No goalposts have moved dude permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago Venezuelan communes and participatory democracy is flourishing. In addition, massive social programs have been implemented, focusing on housing, food security, and poverty eradication I think this really needs to be stressed. Venezuela is a country building Socialism. Maduro and the PSUV is in power because of a genuinely incredible mass movement of communes, neighborhood committees, and other organs of grassroots democracy. This is qualitatively different from say, any of the Gulf oil monarchies I highly recommend the books Building The Commune: Radical Democracy in Venezuela, and Commune or Nothing: Venezuela's Communal Movement and Its Socialist Project, for a look at these aspects of Venezuelan politics, because it's often papered over in discussions about the country. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago (1 child) Man i remember when I was a "damn, the US and it's enemies are both evil" guy. I thought i was done thinking about the world permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago And we thought we were so enlightened. This is the last layer of the imperial core propaganda onion: that the “other side” is no better, which leads to apathy and disengagement. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago And we thought we were so enlightened. This is the last layer of the imperial core propaganda onion: that the “other side” is no better, which leads to apathy and disengagement. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Tinidril@midwest.social -9 points 11 months ago (4 children) Russia isn't imperialist, it has no colonies nor neocolonies Yeah, tell that to Crimea, the Donbas, or even Siberia or the puppet states like Belarus, Georgia and Moldova. Russian neo-colonialism is all over Africa. China isn't imperialist either, it's a socialist country wituout any financial domination of the state or economy. China is a kinder imperialist, but they are using largely the same playbook that the west used in Africa, including debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty and regulation, and undermining labor movements. They also have a mix of socialism and capitalism, sometimes getting the best of both, and sometimes the worst. They definitely dominate the state economy through control of banking and the use of capital controls to direct funding to national priorities. The current real estate crisis and "ghost cities" are a pretty obvious example. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children) Russia isn’t imperialist, it has no colonies nor neocolonies Yeah, tell that to Crimea, the Donbas Are you kidding me? The people in Crimea and the Donbas wanted to join Russia, to protect them from Ukraine, which had been killing them since 2014. Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences. The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties? Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia. Internationalist 360°, 2022–2024: History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide China is a kinder imperialist, but they are using largely the same playbook that the west used in Africa, including debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty and regulation, and undermining labor movements. The Atlantic, 2021: The Chinese ‘Debt Trap’ Is a Myth What is China doing to undermine local sovereignty or labor movements in Africa? The current real estate crisis What “current” real estate crisis? The Chinese state intentionally popped the real estate bubble over a year ago, making the capitalists eat their losses. Reuters: China Evergrande ordered to liquidate in landmark moment for crisis-hit sector Bloomberg: China Reiterates Stance That Homes Are Not for Speculation CNBC: China’s housing minister says real estate developers must go bankrupt if necessary “We will scale up the building and supply of government-subsidized housing and improve the basic systems for commodity housing to meet people’s essential need for a home to live in and their different demands for better housing,” an English-language version of the report said. Compare that to Obama, who bailed out the private banks at the expense of people with home mortgages, banks that knowingly wrote those bad mortgages. Michael Hudson, 2023: Why the Bank Crisis isn’t Over The financial sector is the core of Democratic Party support, and the party leadership is loyal to its supporters. As President Obama told the bankers who worried that he might follow through on his campaign promises to write down mortgage debts to realistic market valuations in order to enable exploited junk-mortgage clients to remain in their homes, “I’m the only one between you [the bankers visiting the White House] and the mob with the pitchforks,” that is, his characterization of voters who believed his “hope and change” patter talk. “ghost cities” are a pretty obvious example. Reuters, 2015: The myth of China’s ghost cities Wherever you’re getting your information from, it’s dogshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Tinidril@midwest.social -11 points 11 months ago* (1 child) I see you have your cut and paste propaganda all ready to go there. The people in Crimea and the Donbas wanted to join Russia, to protect them from Ukraine, Sounds an awful lot like claiming Iraqis wanted the US to overthrow Sadam and would welcome it with open arms. It worked out about the same too, except for the Russian military embarrassing themselves. Even taken at face value, all you are doing is justifying the imperialism, not showing it doesn't exist. China is the biggest debt holder nation in the world. Zambia just had to default on loans for infrastructure that largely served Chinese needs, and Kenya and Ethiopia are not far behind. Meanwhile, the DRC is falling into debt paying for infrastructure to ship Copper and Cobalt to Chinese. China has not been as abusive as the west was, but they aren't that much better either. It's still the same tactics. New Labor Forum: Chinese Investments in Africa: Twenty-First Century Colonialism? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago If you don't like cut and paste responses, stop having cut and paste thoughts. permalink fedilink source parent [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 months ago You also have no evidence of “debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty,” or “undermining labor movements.” Their evidence is that the TV told them this many times over years, enough times that it’s true. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children) Russia isn’t imperialist, it has no colonies nor neocolonies Yeah, tell that to Crimea, the Donbas Are you kidding me? The people in Crimea and the Donbas wanted to join Russia, to protect them from Ukraine, which had been killing them since 2014. Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences. The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties? Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia. Internationalist 360°, 2022–2024: History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide China is a kinder imperialist, but they are using largely the same playbook that the west used in Africa, including debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty and regulation, and undermining labor movements. The Atlantic, 2021: The Chinese ‘Debt Trap’ Is a Myth What is China doing to undermine local sovereignty or labor movements in Africa? The current real estate crisis What “current” real estate crisis? The Chinese state intentionally popped the real estate bubble over a year ago, making the capitalists eat their losses. Reuters: China Evergrande ordered to liquidate in landmark moment for crisis-hit sector Bloomberg: China Reiterates Stance That Homes Are Not for Speculation CNBC: China’s housing minister says real estate developers must go bankrupt if necessary “We will scale up the building and supply of government-subsidized housing and improve the basic systems for commodity housing to meet people’s essential need for a home to live in and their different demands for better housing,” an English-language version of the report said. Compare that to Obama, who bailed out the private banks at the expense of people with home mortgages, banks that knowingly wrote those bad mortgages. Michael Hudson, 2023: Why the Bank Crisis isn’t Over The financial sector is the core of Democratic Party support, and the party leadership is loyal to its supporters. As President Obama told the bankers who worried that he might follow through on his campaign promises to write down mortgage debts to realistic market valuations in order to enable exploited junk-mortgage clients to remain in their homes, “I’m the only one between you [the bankers visiting the White House] and the mob with the pitchforks,” that is, his characterization of voters who believed his “hope and change” patter talk. “ghost cities” are a pretty obvious example. Reuters, 2015: The myth of China’s ghost cities Wherever you’re getting your information from, it’s dogshit. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Tinidril@midwest.social -11 points 11 months ago* (1 child) I see you have your cut and paste propaganda all ready to go there. The people in Crimea and the Donbas wanted to join Russia, to protect them from Ukraine, Sounds an awful lot like claiming Iraqis wanted the US to overthrow Sadam and would welcome it with open arms. It worked out about the same too, except for the Russian military embarrassing themselves. Even taken at face value, all you are doing is justifying the imperialism, not showing it doesn't exist. China is the biggest debt holder nation in the world. Zambia just had to default on loans for infrastructure that largely served Chinese needs, and Kenya and Ethiopia are not far behind. Meanwhile, the DRC is falling into debt paying for infrastructure to ship Copper and Cobalt to Chinese. China has not been as abusive as the west was, but they aren't that much better either. It's still the same tactics. New Labor Forum: Chinese Investments in Africa: Twenty-First Century Colonialism? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago If you don't like cut and paste responses, stop having cut and paste thoughts. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Tinidril@midwest.social -11 points 11 months ago* (1 child) I see you have your cut and paste propaganda all ready to go there. The people in Crimea and the Donbas wanted to join Russia, to protect them from Ukraine, Sounds an awful lot like claiming Iraqis wanted the US to overthrow Sadam and would welcome it with open arms. It worked out about the same too, except for the Russian military embarrassing themselves. Even taken at face value, all you are doing is justifying the imperialism, not showing it doesn't exist. China is the biggest debt holder nation in the world. Zambia just had to default on loans for infrastructure that largely served Chinese needs, and Kenya and Ethiopia are not far behind. Meanwhile, the DRC is falling into debt paying for infrastructure to ship Copper and Cobalt to Chinese. China has not been as abusive as the west was, but they aren't that much better either. It's still the same tactics. New Labor Forum: Chinese Investments in Africa: Twenty-First Century Colonialism? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago If you don't like cut and paste responses, stop having cut and paste thoughts. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago If you don't like cut and paste responses, stop having cut and paste thoughts. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 months ago You also have no evidence of “debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty,” or “undermining labor movements.” Their evidence is that the TV told them this many times over years, enough times that it’s true. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 months ago You also have no evidence of “debt-trap diplomacy, undermining local sovereignty,” or “undermining labor movements.” Their evidence is that the TV told them this many times over years, enough times that it’s true. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago (25 children) Russia isn't imperialist Why do you think they're invading Ukraine. Sparkles and rainbows? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 25 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 22 points 11 months ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -19 points 11 months ago (2 children) Nato is not a risk to russia, and never has been. Nato is a defensive alliance. The only way they're a risk is if russia plans to attack them first. Anyone suggesting that nato provoked it is on something permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) Yeah man ask Libya and Yugoslavia how defended they feel Nato is a defensive alliance just like cops are there to help you permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago NATO expansion: George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine NATO in general: The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world” Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It permalink fedilink source parent [–] Weydemeyer@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago (21 children) Invading / starting a war is not the same thing as imperialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [+] Brosplosion@lemmy.zip -11 points 11 months ago (5 children) It literally is? They are expanding power over a foreign nation via military means. That's basically the definition of imperialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Weydemeyer@lemmy.ml 17 points 11 months ago* You’re talking about simple conquest. By that definition any offensive side in a war is imperialist, which is nonsensical as that means nearly every war in human history involved at least one “imperialist” power. Imperialism is system of establishing and maintaining hegemony over large areas for the benefit of an elite (capital in modern times, patricians in ancient times, etc) within a metropole (probably too simple of a definition but it works). The Romans were an empire not just because they had an emperor and not because they conquered lands, but because they controlled lands from Spain to Syria and wealth flowed from those lands into Rome. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (2 children) The Soviet Union expanded their power over Germany via military means. WW2 was simply an inter-imperialist war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 15 points 11 months ago You jest but this is genuinely what libs believe permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago It was an inter-imperialist war except on the eastern front, where it was a war to destroy communism. The capitalist Allies and the USSR were an alliance of convenience, which is why the West made the USSR its enemy the moment the war ended. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 10 points 11 months ago The imperialist D-Day landings permalink fedilink source parent [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -16 points 11 months ago (14 children) Invading for territory gain is absolutely synonymous with imperialistic tendencies permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago (9 children) The Marxist definition of imperialism is more specific than just "big country invade small country". In, Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism Lenin lays out five aspects of what makes Imperialism: the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy; the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed. The question of "Is Russia Imperialist" isn't a moral one, it's a technical one. So if Russia were do to something that we all agree is morally reprehensible, that's a separate concern from whether Russia is imperialist. The technicality revolves around whether Russia has developed an oligarchy of Financial Capital, such that its invasion of Ukraine or other flexes of its influence, perpetuates the export of Russian finance capital around the world. As it stands now, I don't think that's currently the case, but with Marxism being a dialectal philosophy, I do wonder if this war will accelerate that merging of Bank and industrial capital that Lenin discusses. It's a Bourgeois states, and there's financial capital in there somewhere that absolutely has an interest in forming a Russian imperialism. So when people say "Russia isn't Imperialist", this is what's being referred to. You can take it or leave it, but it's worth getting into the weeds a bit, so we aren't all talking passed each other permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago (8 children) Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is. A more standard definition is far more reasonable to use. However, your comment is very informative to me, I'm glad you took the time to write this out permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is Marxism isn't the only analytical lens out there, no. But the people you're arguing with are working with that definition, which is why I took the time to clarify. Thank you for appreciating my effort post though lol permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children) "A more standard definition" than the one that's been in use for over a hundred years and accurately describes the dynamic in question? The definition liberals use is both new and entirely vibes-based. It is useless for anything but bringing geopolitical conversations to a screeching halt with murky equivocations. The Marxist definition exists to clarify, while the liberal definition exists to obscure. It's the "socialism is when the government does stuff" of international relations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago* (5 children) The Marxist definition is strictly different, not a clarification. The Marxist one posits only capitalism can be imperialist, something I would say is strictly incorrect permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (1 child) A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago Ok but the person above just denied that a square was a rectangle permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 11 points 11 months ago (1 child) Look at those goalposts fly permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -8 points 11 months ago No goalposts have moved dude permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 22 points 11 months ago (3 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -19 points 11 months ago (2 children) Nato is not a risk to russia, and never has been. Nato is a defensive alliance. The only way they're a risk is if russia plans to attack them first. Anyone suggesting that nato provoked it is on something permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) Yeah man ask Libya and Yugoslavia how defended they feel Nato is a defensive alliance just like cops are there to help you permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago NATO expansion: George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine NATO in general: The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world” Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -19 points 11 months ago (2 children) Nato is not a risk to russia, and never has been. Nato is a defensive alliance. The only way they're a risk is if russia plans to attack them first. Anyone suggesting that nato provoked it is on something permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) Yeah man ask Libya and Yugoslavia how defended they feel Nato is a defensive alliance just like cops are there to help you permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago NATO expansion: George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine NATO in general: The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world” Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) Yeah man ask Libya and Yugoslavia how defended they feel Nato is a defensive alliance just like cops are there to help you permalink fedilink source parent
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 19 points 11 months ago NATO expansion: George Washington Univ., 2017: NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner Orinoco Tribune, 2022: Former German Chancellor Merkel Admits that Minsk Peace Agreements Were Part of Scheme for Ukraine to Buy Time to Prepare for War With Russia Al Mayadeen, 2023: Zelensky admits he never intended to implement Minsk agreements Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace Jeffrey Sachs, 2023: NATO Chief Admits NATO Expansion Was Key to Russian Invasion of Ukraine NATO in general: The Intercept, 2021: Meet NATO, the Dangerous “Defensive” Alliance Trying to Run the World CounterPunch, 2022: NATO is Not a Defensive Alliance Noam Chomsky, 2023: NATO “most violent, aggressive alliance in the world” Thomas Fazi, 2024: NATO: 75 years of war, unprovoked aggressions and state-sponsored terrorism Gabriel Rockhill, 2020: The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Weydemeyer@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago (21 children) Invading / starting a war is not the same thing as imperialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 21 child comments replies: [+] Brosplosion@lemmy.zip -11 points 11 months ago (5 children) It literally is? They are expanding power over a foreign nation via military means. That's basically the definition of imperialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Weydemeyer@lemmy.ml 17 points 11 months ago* You’re talking about simple conquest. By that definition any offensive side in a war is imperialist, which is nonsensical as that means nearly every war in human history involved at least one “imperialist” power. Imperialism is system of establishing and maintaining hegemony over large areas for the benefit of an elite (capital in modern times, patricians in ancient times, etc) within a metropole (probably too simple of a definition but it works). The Romans were an empire not just because they had an emperor and not because they conquered lands, but because they controlled lands from Spain to Syria and wealth flowed from those lands into Rome. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (2 children) The Soviet Union expanded their power over Germany via military means. WW2 was simply an inter-imperialist war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 15 points 11 months ago You jest but this is genuinely what libs believe permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago It was an inter-imperialist war except on the eastern front, where it was a war to destroy communism. The capitalist Allies and the USSR were an alliance of convenience, which is why the West made the USSR its enemy the moment the war ended. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 10 points 11 months ago The imperialist D-Day landings permalink fedilink source parent [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -16 points 11 months ago (14 children) Invading for territory gain is absolutely synonymous with imperialistic tendencies permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago (9 children) The Marxist definition of imperialism is more specific than just "big country invade small country". In, Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism Lenin lays out five aspects of what makes Imperialism: the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy; the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed. The question of "Is Russia Imperialist" isn't a moral one, it's a technical one. So if Russia were do to something that we all agree is morally reprehensible, that's a separate concern from whether Russia is imperialist. The technicality revolves around whether Russia has developed an oligarchy of Financial Capital, such that its invasion of Ukraine or other flexes of its influence, perpetuates the export of Russian finance capital around the world. As it stands now, I don't think that's currently the case, but with Marxism being a dialectal philosophy, I do wonder if this war will accelerate that merging of Bank and industrial capital that Lenin discusses. It's a Bourgeois states, and there's financial capital in there somewhere that absolutely has an interest in forming a Russian imperialism. So when people say "Russia isn't Imperialist", this is what's being referred to. You can take it or leave it, but it's worth getting into the weeds a bit, so we aren't all talking passed each other permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago (8 children) Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is. A more standard definition is far more reasonable to use. However, your comment is very informative to me, I'm glad you took the time to write this out permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is Marxism isn't the only analytical lens out there, no. But the people you're arguing with are working with that definition, which is why I took the time to clarify. Thank you for appreciating my effort post though lol permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children) "A more standard definition" than the one that's been in use for over a hundred years and accurately describes the dynamic in question? The definition liberals use is both new and entirely vibes-based. It is useless for anything but bringing geopolitical conversations to a screeching halt with murky equivocations. The Marxist definition exists to clarify, while the liberal definition exists to obscure. It's the "socialism is when the government does stuff" of international relations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago* (5 children) The Marxist definition is strictly different, not a clarification. The Marxist one posits only capitalism can be imperialist, something I would say is strictly incorrect permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (1 child) A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago Ok but the person above just denied that a square was a rectangle permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 11 points 11 months ago (1 child) Look at those goalposts fly permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -8 points 11 months ago No goalposts have moved dude permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Brosplosion@lemmy.zip -11 points 11 months ago (5 children) It literally is? They are expanding power over a foreign nation via military means. That's basically the definition of imperialism. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Weydemeyer@lemmy.ml 17 points 11 months ago* You’re talking about simple conquest. By that definition any offensive side in a war is imperialist, which is nonsensical as that means nearly every war in human history involved at least one “imperialist” power. Imperialism is system of establishing and maintaining hegemony over large areas for the benefit of an elite (capital in modern times, patricians in ancient times, etc) within a metropole (probably too simple of a definition but it works). The Romans were an empire not just because they had an emperor and not because they conquered lands, but because they controlled lands from Spain to Syria and wealth flowed from those lands into Rome. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Edie@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (2 children) The Soviet Union expanded their power over Germany via military means. WW2 was simply an inter-imperialist war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 15 points 11 months ago You jest but this is genuinely what libs believe permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago It was an inter-imperialist war except on the eastern front, where it was a war to destroy communism. The capitalist Allies and the USSR were an alliance of convenience, which is why the West made the USSR its enemy the moment the war ended. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 10 points 11 months ago The imperialist D-Day landings permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Weydemeyer@lemmy.ml 17 points 11 months ago* You’re talking about simple conquest. By that definition any offensive side in a war is imperialist, which is nonsensical as that means nearly every war in human history involved at least one “imperialist” power. Imperialism is system of establishing and maintaining hegemony over large areas for the benefit of an elite (capital in modern times, patricians in ancient times, etc) within a metropole (probably too simple of a definition but it works). The Romans were an empire not just because they had an emperor and not because they conquered lands, but because they controlled lands from Spain to Syria and wealth flowed from those lands into Rome. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Edie@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (2 children) The Soviet Union expanded their power over Germany via military means. WW2 was simply an inter-imperialist war. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 15 points 11 months ago You jest but this is genuinely what libs believe permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago It was an inter-imperialist war except on the eastern front, where it was a war to destroy communism. The capitalist Allies and the USSR were an alliance of convenience, which is why the West made the USSR its enemy the moment the war ended. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Socialism_Everyday@reddthat.com 15 points 11 months ago You jest but this is genuinely what libs believe permalink fedilink source parent
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago It was an inter-imperialist war except on the eastern front, where it was a war to destroy communism. The capitalist Allies and the USSR were an alliance of convenience, which is why the West made the USSR its enemy the moment the war ended. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 10 points 11 months ago The imperialist D-Day landings permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -16 points 11 months ago (14 children) Invading for territory gain is absolutely synonymous with imperialistic tendencies permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 14 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago (9 children) The Marxist definition of imperialism is more specific than just "big country invade small country". In, Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism Lenin lays out five aspects of what makes Imperialism: the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy; the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed. The question of "Is Russia Imperialist" isn't a moral one, it's a technical one. So if Russia were do to something that we all agree is morally reprehensible, that's a separate concern from whether Russia is imperialist. The technicality revolves around whether Russia has developed an oligarchy of Financial Capital, such that its invasion of Ukraine or other flexes of its influence, perpetuates the export of Russian finance capital around the world. As it stands now, I don't think that's currently the case, but with Marxism being a dialectal philosophy, I do wonder if this war will accelerate that merging of Bank and industrial capital that Lenin discusses. It's a Bourgeois states, and there's financial capital in there somewhere that absolutely has an interest in forming a Russian imperialism. So when people say "Russia isn't Imperialist", this is what's being referred to. You can take it or leave it, but it's worth getting into the weeds a bit, so we aren't all talking passed each other permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago (8 children) Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is. A more standard definition is far more reasonable to use. However, your comment is very informative to me, I'm glad you took the time to write this out permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is Marxism isn't the only analytical lens out there, no. But the people you're arguing with are working with that definition, which is why I took the time to clarify. Thank you for appreciating my effort post though lol permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children) "A more standard definition" than the one that's been in use for over a hundred years and accurately describes the dynamic in question? The definition liberals use is both new and entirely vibes-based. It is useless for anything but bringing geopolitical conversations to a screeching halt with murky equivocations. The Marxist definition exists to clarify, while the liberal definition exists to obscure. It's the "socialism is when the government does stuff" of international relations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago* (5 children) The Marxist definition is strictly different, not a clarification. The Marxist one posits only capitalism can be imperialist, something I would say is strictly incorrect permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent [–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (1 child) A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago Ok but the person above just denied that a square was a rectangle permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 11 points 11 months ago (1 child) Look at those goalposts fly permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -8 points 11 months ago No goalposts have moved dude permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago (9 children) The Marxist definition of imperialism is more specific than just "big country invade small country". In, Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism Lenin lays out five aspects of what makes Imperialism: the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation, on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy; the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; the formation of international monopolist capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed. The question of "Is Russia Imperialist" isn't a moral one, it's a technical one. So if Russia were do to something that we all agree is morally reprehensible, that's a separate concern from whether Russia is imperialist. The technicality revolves around whether Russia has developed an oligarchy of Financial Capital, such that its invasion of Ukraine or other flexes of its influence, perpetuates the export of Russian finance capital around the world. As it stands now, I don't think that's currently the case, but with Marxism being a dialectal philosophy, I do wonder if this war will accelerate that merging of Bank and industrial capital that Lenin discusses. It's a Bourgeois states, and there's financial capital in there somewhere that absolutely has an interest in forming a Russian imperialism. So when people say "Russia isn't Imperialist", this is what's being referred to. You can take it or leave it, but it's worth getting into the weeds a bit, so we aren't all talking passed each other permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 9 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago (8 children) Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is. A more standard definition is far more reasonable to use. However, your comment is very informative to me, I'm glad you took the time to write this out permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is Marxism isn't the only analytical lens out there, no. But the people you're arguing with are working with that definition, which is why I took the time to clarify. Thank you for appreciating my effort post though lol permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children) "A more standard definition" than the one that's been in use for over a hundred years and accurately describes the dynamic in question? The definition liberals use is both new and entirely vibes-based. It is useless for anything but bringing geopolitical conversations to a screeching halt with murky equivocations. The Marxist definition exists to clarify, while the liberal definition exists to obscure. It's the "socialism is when the government does stuff" of international relations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago* (5 children) The Marxist definition is strictly different, not a clarification. The Marxist one posits only capitalism can be imperialist, something I would say is strictly incorrect permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago (8 children) Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is. A more standard definition is far more reasonable to use. However, your comment is very informative to me, I'm glad you took the time to write this out permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is Marxism isn't the only analytical lens out there, no. But the people you're arguing with are working with that definition, which is why I took the time to clarify. Thank you for appreciating my effort post though lol permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children) "A more standard definition" than the one that's been in use for over a hundred years and accurately describes the dynamic in question? The definition liberals use is both new and entirely vibes-based. It is useless for anything but bringing geopolitical conversations to a screeching halt with murky equivocations. The Marxist definition exists to clarify, while the liberal definition exists to obscure. It's the "socialism is when the government does stuff" of international relations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago* (5 children) The Marxist definition is strictly different, not a clarification. The Marxist one posits only capitalism can be imperialist, something I would say is strictly incorrect permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 16 points 11 months ago Marxist does not get to exclusively define what imperialism is Marxism isn't the only analytical lens out there, no. But the people you're arguing with are working with that definition, which is why I took the time to clarify. Thank you for appreciating my effort post though lol permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children) "A more standard definition" than the one that's been in use for over a hundred years and accurately describes the dynamic in question? The definition liberals use is both new and entirely vibes-based. It is useless for anything but bringing geopolitical conversations to a screeching halt with murky equivocations. The Marxist definition exists to clarify, while the liberal definition exists to obscure. It's the "socialism is when the government does stuff" of international relations. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago* (5 children) The Marxist definition is strictly different, not a clarification. The Marxist one posits only capitalism can be imperialist, something I would say is strictly incorrect permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -9 points 11 months ago* (5 children) The Marxist definition is strictly different, not a clarification. The Marxist one posits only capitalism can be imperialist, something I would say is strictly incorrect permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children) Imperialism is quite literally the highest stage of capitalism. The way liberals use it is just as a synonym for "aggressive". What definition do you propose that doesn't make like, the D-Day landings imperialist? Downvote isn't mine, btw permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago* (3 children) aggression with an expansionist agenda. especially by a country and especially unprovoked. Economically or militarily. D-day wouldn't be included because the goal wasn't expansion. Though I would be very surprised if the usa and Europe hadn't perpetrated many acts that should be included during the full course of the war. And of course you can get into the argument of cultural imperialism as well permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago* (2 children) For sure, but there are a few problems with that definition. The first is that it doesn't apply to the Russian intervention in Ukraine that started this conversation, which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory. The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. The third is that we already have the term Expansionist, which is perfectly fine and general enough for both capitalist and non-capitalist actions, while Imperialism describes a specific dynamic that arises from specifically capitalist causes. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -6 points 11 months ago (1 child) The second is that it only includes atate actions meant to take territory in an official capacity, while many imperialist actions have been carried out under the auspices of private companies like Haliburton, Dole, the United Fruit Company, and the Dutch East India Company. For the record, my stated definition does not limit it. When "especially" is used in definitions, it's not stated as a limiter but rather to show it primarily applies to as such. which is neither unprovoked nor being done to expand Russian territory This is a fundamental disagreement. Especially in regards to saying it's not to expand their territory as a goal. One interesting thing I find with lemmy. Is equating ownership existing with capitalism. Presumably because that's how it's portrayed in communist literature. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 5 points 11 months ago Then it's not part of the definition? That's like saying the definition of "apple" is "a fruit from a tree, especially a fruit with simple uniform flesh and a thin skin" and then when I say this orange is not an apple you say "I said especially so it doesn't really count" So your definition is now simply military invasion. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] davel@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago (1 child) A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago Ok but the person above just denied that a square was a rectangle permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -7 points 11 months ago Ok but the person above just denied that a square was a rectangle permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 11 points 11 months ago (1 child) Look at those goalposts fly permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -8 points 11 months ago No goalposts have moved dude permalink fedilink source parent
[+] Fredthefishlord@lemmy.blahaj.zone -8 points 11 months ago No goalposts have moved dude permalink fedilink source parent