Programming

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 1 point 1 year ago* (5 children)

You must be living in a different bubble than me then, because I see zstd used everywhere, from my Linux package manager, my Linux kernel boot image, to my browser getting served zstd content-encoding by default

Clearly a different bubble lol.

What distro are you using that uses zstd? Both kernel images and packages seem like a textbook case where compressed size is more important than speed of compression... which would mean not zstd. And of course I checked, it looks like NixOS uses bz2 for kernel images (which is obviously right to me) and gzip (!) for packages? Maybe? I'm not totally up to speed on it yet, but it sort of looks that way.

I mean I see the benchmarks, zstd looks nice. I checked this:

https://tools.paulcalvano.com/compression-tester/

... on lemmy.world, and it said that lemmy.world wasn't offering zstd as an option, In its estimate, Brotli is way better than gzip, and sort of equivalent with zstd with zstd often being slightly faster in compression. I get the idea, it sounds cool, but it sort of sounds like some thing that Facebook is pushing that's of dubious usefulness unless you really have a need for much faster compression (which, to be fair, is a lot of important use cases).

Yeah, I think of bz2 as sort of maximal compression at the cost of slower speed, gzip as the standard if you just want "compression" in general and don't care that much, and then a little menagerie of higher performance options if you care enough to optimize. The only thing that struck me as weird about what you were saying was claiming it's better in every metric (instead of it just being a good project that focuses on high speed and okay compression) and a global standard (instead of being something new-ish that is useful in some specific scenarios). And then when I tried both zstd and this other new Facebook thing and they were both worse (on compression) than bz2 which has been around for ages I became a lot more skeptical...

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[–] FizzyOrange@programming.dev 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

He's right, zstd is incredibly popular, quite widely used and also generally believed to be the best compression algorithm overall.

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 1 point 1 year ago

Sure. I'm saying I tested it against bz2, looked up some rough details of how it works, and got a sense of what the strengths and weaknesses are, and you are wrong that it is simply "the best." I actually do think it's plausibly "the best" for applications where speed of compression is paramount and you still need decent compression, which is probably a lot of them. Having learned that, I've completed what I wanted to get out of this conversation.

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[–] phiresky@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

compressed size is more important than speed of compression

Yes, but decompression speed is even more important, no? My internet connection gets 40MByte/s and my ssd 500+MB/s, so if my decompressor runs at <40MB/s it's slowing down my updates / boot time and it would be better to use a worse compression.

Arch - since 2021 for kernel images https://archlinux.org/news/moving-to-zstandard-images-by-default-on-mkinitcpio/ and since 2019 for packages https://lists.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2019-December/029739.html

brotli is mainly good because it basically has a huge dictionary that includes common http headers and html structures so those don't need to be part of the compressed file. I would assume without testing that zstd would more clearly win against brotli if you'd train a similar dictionary for it or just include a random WARC file into --patch-from.

Cloudflare started supporting zstd and is using it as the default since 2024 https://blog.cloudflare.com/new-standards/ citing compression speed as the main reason (since it does this on the fly). It's been in chrome since 2021 https://chromestatus.com/feature/6186023867908096

The RFC mentions dictionaries but they are not currently used:

Actually this is already considered in RFC-8878 [0]. The RFC reserves zstd frame dictionary ids in the ranges: <= 32767 and >= (1 << 31) for a public IANA dictionary registry, but there are no such dictionaries published for public use yet. [0]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8878#iana_dict

And there is a proposed standard for how zstd dictionaries could be served from a domain https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9842/

it’s better in every metric

Let me revise that statement to - it's better in every metric (compression speed, compressed size, feature set, most importantly decompression speed) compared to all other compressors I'm aware of, apart from xz and bz2 and potentially other non-lz compressors in the best compression ratio aspect. And I'm not sure whether it beats lzo/lz4 in the very fast levels (negative numbers on zstd).

that struck me as weird about what you were saying

What struck me as weird about what you were kind of calling it AI hype crap, when they are developing this for their own use and publishing it (not to make money). I'm kind of assuming this based on how much work they put into open sourcing the zstd format and how deeply it is now used in much FOSS which does not care at all for facebook. The format they are introducing uses explicitly structured data formats to guide a compressor - a structure which can be generated from a struct or class definition, and yes potentially much easier by an LLM, but I don't think that is hooey. So I assumed you had no idea what you were talking about.

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

Let me revise that statement to - it’s better in every metric (compression speed, compressed size, feature set, most importantly decompression speed) compared to all other compressors I’m aware of, apart from xz and bz2 and potentially other non-lz compressors in the best compression ratio aspect.

Your Cloudflare post literally says "a new compression algorithm that we have found compresses data 42% faster than Brotli while maintaining almost the same compression levels." Yes, I get that in some circumstances where compression speed is important, this might be very useful. I don't see the point in talking further in circles anymore, thank you for the information.

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[–] phiresky@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago*

like I said, brotli contains a large dictionary for web content / http which means you can't compare it directly to other compressors when looking at web content. the reason they do a comparison like that is because hardcoded dictionaries are not part of the zstd compression content-encoding because it is iffy.