egerlach comments on Lady regrets voting for Trump after her terminally ill, undocumented father is detained.

[–] egerlach@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The right wing is using propaganda tactics that are known to brainwash and dupe many people, and you're not going to treat those who got brainwashed and duped like victims too? Yes, they're adults, and that means that they have to take responsibility for their vote. Once they do, admit they were conned, and express willingness to join the fight, it's important we accept them with open arms so they know our side is better than the other side.

As long as they're doubling down on fascism? Hard agree, they can kick rocks. Once they see what's really going on and are willing to fight it? Welcome to the team, sorry about what happened to your dad, let's see if we can get him back.

Every person like this is an opportunity to gain an ally. It's an opportunity to find out if this person was conned or is selfish. We lose that opportunity if we mock them instead of offering a hand in solidarity.

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[–] Bytemeister@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

The right wing is using propaganda tactics that are known to brainwash and dupe many people...

No one is forcing people to consume that content. It's weak propaganda at best, easily seen through, and there is no shortage of well-sourced refutations of their lies. Have you tried talking to any trump supporters? When given direct evidence that they are wrong, and have been mislead by right wing media, they simply double down.

... you’re not going to treat those who got brainwashed and duped like victims too.

Absolutely not. They are not children who are sharing the opinions of their parents, they are full-grown voting adults in a society where all of human knowledge is available in their fucking pockets. I can understand making the trump mistake once in 2016, but at this point, he has a proven track record of racist, authoritarian and incompetent management of the country.

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[–] egerlach@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

Not everyone has the luxury of the free time and effort to pay enough attention, and those people vote. I'm not suggesting absolving them of their individual responsibility. They contributed and they have to reckon with that. I'm suggesting that we recognise the role that the system they exist in plays, too. And that they're human which means they have all the failings that come along with that.

Do we hold Oppenheimer responsible for all the deaths the Manhatten Project caused? I argue we shouldn't, but he still had to personally reckon with the moral weight of it.

Two things can both be true: someone can have been part of the cause of injustice and join the fight for justice. We can both hold them accountable; and encourage their growth, offer them grace, and welcome them to the right side of history. We don't have to forgive, but mocking (at first) doesn't help IMO.

(As I've said elsewhere, no reservations about mocking the unrepentant)

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[–] Bytemeister@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

We don’t have to forgive, but mocking (at first) doesn’t help IMO...

Yeah, but we're on round 3 for people listening to trump's campaigns.

Also in case you missed it...

I can understand making the trump mistake once in 2016.

Honestly, it's gone so badly the last 3 rounds that I really think we ought to have a basic "in touch with reality test" and then weight votes based on whether people can answer objective true/false questions like... "The earth is a flat disc being accellerating upwards through space" and "Bacteria and Viruses are real, and can cause diseases."

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[–] egerlach@lemmy.ca 1 point 1 year ago

We don’t have to forgive, but mocking (at first) doesn’t help IMO…

Yeah, but we’re on round 3 for people listening to trump’s campaigns.

Brainwashing is effective. Capital control of mass-media is effective. I would prefer we focused our attention there rather than on the victims of that propaganda.

Honestly, it’s gone so badly the last 3 rounds

But if someone genuinely sees the light after the third round, and their first interaction as they're coming to this realization is to be told that the tragedy that has befallen their family is their own fault... not a great feeling.

There's going to be a round 4, 5, 6, etc. of this shit in the US. There will be other versions of this in other countries, too. The more ppl we successfully deprogram after each round of fascist betrayal, the fewer ppl will be vulnerable to the propaganda the next time. It's a never ending job because we keep making new people and the fascists will always be doing propaganda.

I really think we ought to have a basic “in touch with reality test”

I'm frustrated with the incompetence of many people, too. It would be awesome if we could construct some kind of system that would ensure people are well informed before voting.

I fear any such system wouldn't pass the "would I let the fascists do this" test. There is no system involving a test that we can create that they couldn't co-opt to e.g. make a test requiring Christian Nationalist answers. Societal systems need to be made robust against corruption and constantly defended against the same. We can't rely on good people always being in charge, but if we build our systems well, we can get good people in charge more often and weather the storm when we don't.

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