▲ 137 ▼ Libs on surveillance cameras and ChInA BaD (lemmy.ml) submitted 1 year ago by bubblybubbles@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml 32 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net -2 points 1 year ago (2 children) Didn't Mao do the Cultural Revolution specifically to prevent (not that it was implemented well or that it worked) what he saw the USSR was becoming and wanted to prevent China from following in the same capitalistic footsteps? As in do you believe the person who said (2) The imperialist powers have forced China to sign numerous unequal treaties by which they have acquired the right to station land and sea forces and exercise consular jurisdiction in China, [17] and they have carved up the whole country into imperialist spheres of influence. [18] (3) The imperialist powers have gained control of all the important trading ports in China by these unequal treaties and have marked off areas in many of these ports as concessions under their direct administration.[19] They have also gained control of China's customs, foreign trade and communications (sea, land, inland water and air). Thus they have been able to dump their goods in China, turn her into a market for their industrial products, and at the same time subordinate her agriculture to their imperialist needs would approve of the belt and road debt trap or the actual 99 year lease China used to take over the port of Colombo in Sri Lanka ? Or is it fine to exploit other countries if the people in your country benefit? Even then you believe they're socialist when Deng Xiaoping says (and Xi repeats this "common prosperity" rhetoric) that “Our policy is to let some people and some regions get rich first, in order to drive and help the backward regions, and it is an obligation for the advanced regions to help the backward regions.” So you recognize the failure of neoliberal "trickle down" economics but refuse to accept that if the same capital accumulation happens in a "socialist" country its suddenly not a problem? And you really think that Jack Ma and his family won't fight tooth and nail to keep their private jets and offshore million dollar houses instead of forgoing them voluntarily for the good of the socialist project? please.. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago (1 child) So you're saying that China didn't extend or take advantage of western debt traps for their own economic and geopolitical goals? So Sri Lanka desperately needs $1.12 billion to avoid defaulting to Western bondholders China provides that cash immediately In exchange they get 99-year control of a $1.4 billion strategic asset Sri Lanka still owes them the original construction debt China now controls 70% of future port profits for a century (or two) And look I'm not claiming that this crisis wasn't caused by western imperialism - but calling it a "trade" or "multilateral exchange" when China very obviously took advantage of a country in crisis for almost exclusively their own benefit is disingenuous. Do you really see no issues with such predatory lending (irrespective of it being done by the IMF or BRI)? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago The article you've linked says they've forgiven less than 5% of the total amount lended so not sure I'd classify that as "frequent" Further, the PRC does not require austerity politics or otherwise giving up sovereignty over the recipients economy, they pay for infrastructural development. I agree this is definitely a good thing but I want to acknowledge they do also directly profit from all this development - they're not doing it to help others for the socialist ideal but for strategic geopolitical goals they just fundamentally don't have the same mechanics that force imperialism in the west, like huge private monopoly and falling rates of profit. But they still operate in the same system which is why even their renegotiated loans never fall below the 2% inflation rate. Idk I can understand critical support of China when it comes to challenging western imperialism I just don't agree with their approach of rejecting egalitarianism and enforcing material inequality as a means to supposedly reach communism permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies) [+] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com -9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) https://www.ie.edu/insights/articles/is-china-a-communist-country/ Though you'll probably deny this article as valid because it harms your perception of China being a Communist state, and usually people do not like they're conspiracy theories to be challenged by actual fact. Additionally, besides the argument of whether it's communist or not, it is not a good country and if that's what communism looks like, then I actually want no part in communism. They have no ability for free speech or even protests. Say what you want about it's economics, but that is not how humans should be forced to live. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child) I will admit, I have not read the source theory, but I engage often with communists (most of my immidiate sphere are communists) enough to get a lot of it (I am actually an Anarcho-Communist, just to note). But my problem, as always, with a lot of you people who are obsessed with trying to use China as an example of communism, is the fact that theory and practice are two very different things. Very few places if any even follow your own theory from what I have gleaned from other comrades. It is also really easy to pressure people to give the answers you want to for those kind of questions if you are an authoritarian state. Also from the cyber security sector, most citizens of China desperately try and get their hands on vpns or use tor in order to be able to actually access the external world, which is never a good sign and does not scream "We're free!" to me. Also fox news is abhorant, as is all American backed official news outlets. I use lemmy, did you really think that I watch state provided news? Or was that an ad hominim because people here dislike Fox specifically? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago I appreciate the apology for the jab and i as well apologize for seeming somewhat resistant and bitter. Most of my problem with china comes from how they handle the digital front and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for how they treat their citizens, so it's really hard for me to imagine they're doing socialism correctly. I will probably go and look into the sources you linked. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] zeezee@slrpnk.net -2 points 1 year ago (2 children) Didn't Mao do the Cultural Revolution specifically to prevent (not that it was implemented well or that it worked) what he saw the USSR was becoming and wanted to prevent China from following in the same capitalistic footsteps? As in do you believe the person who said (2) The imperialist powers have forced China to sign numerous unequal treaties by which they have acquired the right to station land and sea forces and exercise consular jurisdiction in China, [17] and they have carved up the whole country into imperialist spheres of influence. [18] (3) The imperialist powers have gained control of all the important trading ports in China by these unequal treaties and have marked off areas in many of these ports as concessions under their direct administration.[19] They have also gained control of China's customs, foreign trade and communications (sea, land, inland water and air). Thus they have been able to dump their goods in China, turn her into a market for their industrial products, and at the same time subordinate her agriculture to their imperialist needs would approve of the belt and road debt trap or the actual 99 year lease China used to take over the port of Colombo in Sri Lanka ? Or is it fine to exploit other countries if the people in your country benefit? Even then you believe they're socialist when Deng Xiaoping says (and Xi repeats this "common prosperity" rhetoric) that “Our policy is to let some people and some regions get rich first, in order to drive and help the backward regions, and it is an obligation for the advanced regions to help the backward regions.” So you recognize the failure of neoliberal "trickle down" economics but refuse to accept that if the same capital accumulation happens in a "socialist" country its suddenly not a problem? And you really think that Jack Ma and his family won't fight tooth and nail to keep their private jets and offshore million dollar houses instead of forgoing them voluntarily for the good of the socialist project? please.. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago (1 child) So you're saying that China didn't extend or take advantage of western debt traps for their own economic and geopolitical goals? So Sri Lanka desperately needs $1.12 billion to avoid defaulting to Western bondholders China provides that cash immediately In exchange they get 99-year control of a $1.4 billion strategic asset Sri Lanka still owes them the original construction debt China now controls 70% of future port profits for a century (or two) And look I'm not claiming that this crisis wasn't caused by western imperialism - but calling it a "trade" or "multilateral exchange" when China very obviously took advantage of a country in crisis for almost exclusively their own benefit is disingenuous. Do you really see no issues with such predatory lending (irrespective of it being done by the IMF or BRI)? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago The article you've linked says they've forgiven less than 5% of the total amount lended so not sure I'd classify that as "frequent" Further, the PRC does not require austerity politics or otherwise giving up sovereignty over the recipients economy, they pay for infrastructural development. I agree this is definitely a good thing but I want to acknowledge they do also directly profit from all this development - they're not doing it to help others for the socialist ideal but for strategic geopolitical goals they just fundamentally don't have the same mechanics that force imperialism in the west, like huge private monopoly and falling rates of profit. But they still operate in the same system which is why even their renegotiated loans never fall below the 2% inflation rate. Idk I can understand critical support of China when it comes to challenging western imperialism I just don't agree with their approach of rejecting egalitarianism and enforcing material inequality as a means to supposedly reach communism permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago (1 child) So you're saying that China didn't extend or take advantage of western debt traps for their own economic and geopolitical goals? So Sri Lanka desperately needs $1.12 billion to avoid defaulting to Western bondholders China provides that cash immediately In exchange they get 99-year control of a $1.4 billion strategic asset Sri Lanka still owes them the original construction debt China now controls 70% of future port profits for a century (or two) And look I'm not claiming that this crisis wasn't caused by western imperialism - but calling it a "trade" or "multilateral exchange" when China very obviously took advantage of a country in crisis for almost exclusively their own benefit is disingenuous. Do you really see no issues with such predatory lending (irrespective of it being done by the IMF or BRI)? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago The article you've linked says they've forgiven less than 5% of the total amount lended so not sure I'd classify that as "frequent" Further, the PRC does not require austerity politics or otherwise giving up sovereignty over the recipients economy, they pay for infrastructural development. I agree this is definitely a good thing but I want to acknowledge they do also directly profit from all this development - they're not doing it to help others for the socialist ideal but for strategic geopolitical goals they just fundamentally don't have the same mechanics that force imperialism in the west, like huge private monopoly and falling rates of profit. But they still operate in the same system which is why even their renegotiated loans never fall below the 2% inflation rate. Idk I can understand critical support of China when it comes to challenging western imperialism I just don't agree with their approach of rejecting egalitarianism and enforcing material inequality as a means to supposedly reach communism permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago (1 child) So you're saying that China didn't extend or take advantage of western debt traps for their own economic and geopolitical goals? So Sri Lanka desperately needs $1.12 billion to avoid defaulting to Western bondholders China provides that cash immediately In exchange they get 99-year control of a $1.4 billion strategic asset Sri Lanka still owes them the original construction debt China now controls 70% of future port profits for a century (or two) And look I'm not claiming that this crisis wasn't caused by western imperialism - but calling it a "trade" or "multilateral exchange" when China very obviously took advantage of a country in crisis for almost exclusively their own benefit is disingenuous. Do you really see no issues with such predatory lending (irrespective of it being done by the IMF or BRI)? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago The article you've linked says they've forgiven less than 5% of the total amount lended so not sure I'd classify that as "frequent" Further, the PRC does not require austerity politics or otherwise giving up sovereignty over the recipients economy, they pay for infrastructural development. I agree this is definitely a good thing but I want to acknowledge they do also directly profit from all this development - they're not doing it to help others for the socialist ideal but for strategic geopolitical goals they just fundamentally don't have the same mechanics that force imperialism in the west, like huge private monopoly and falling rates of profit. But they still operate in the same system which is why even their renegotiated loans never fall below the 2% inflation rate. Idk I can understand critical support of China when it comes to challenging western imperialism I just don't agree with their approach of rejecting egalitarianism and enforcing material inequality as a means to supposedly reach communism permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago The article you've linked says they've forgiven less than 5% of the total amount lended so not sure I'd classify that as "frequent" Further, the PRC does not require austerity politics or otherwise giving up sovereignty over the recipients economy, they pay for infrastructural development. I agree this is definitely a good thing but I want to acknowledge they do also directly profit from all this development - they're not doing it to help others for the socialist ideal but for strategic geopolitical goals they just fundamentally don't have the same mechanics that force imperialism in the west, like huge private monopoly and falling rates of profit. But they still operate in the same system which is why even their renegotiated loans never fall below the 2% inflation rate. Idk I can understand critical support of China when it comes to challenging western imperialism I just don't agree with their approach of rejecting egalitarianism and enforcing material inequality as a means to supposedly reach communism permalink fedilink source parent
[–] zeezee@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago The article you've linked says they've forgiven less than 5% of the total amount lended so not sure I'd classify that as "frequent" Further, the PRC does not require austerity politics or otherwise giving up sovereignty over the recipients economy, they pay for infrastructural development. I agree this is definitely a good thing but I want to acknowledge they do also directly profit from all this development - they're not doing it to help others for the socialist ideal but for strategic geopolitical goals they just fundamentally don't have the same mechanics that force imperialism in the west, like huge private monopoly and falling rates of profit. But they still operate in the same system which is why even their renegotiated loans never fall below the 2% inflation rate. Idk I can understand critical support of China when it comes to challenging western imperialism I just don't agree with their approach of rejecting egalitarianism and enforcing material inequality as a means to supposedly reach communism permalink fedilink source parent
[+] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com -9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children) https://www.ie.edu/insights/articles/is-china-a-communist-country/ Though you'll probably deny this article as valid because it harms your perception of China being a Communist state, and usually people do not like they're conspiracy theories to be challenged by actual fact. Additionally, besides the argument of whether it's communist or not, it is not a good country and if that's what communism looks like, then I actually want no part in communism. They have no ability for free speech or even protests. Say what you want about it's economics, but that is not how humans should be forced to live. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child) I will admit, I have not read the source theory, but I engage often with communists (most of my immidiate sphere are communists) enough to get a lot of it (I am actually an Anarcho-Communist, just to note). But my problem, as always, with a lot of you people who are obsessed with trying to use China as an example of communism, is the fact that theory and practice are two very different things. Very few places if any even follow your own theory from what I have gleaned from other comrades. It is also really easy to pressure people to give the answers you want to for those kind of questions if you are an authoritarian state. Also from the cyber security sector, most citizens of China desperately try and get their hands on vpns or use tor in order to be able to actually access the external world, which is never a good sign and does not scream "We're free!" to me. Also fox news is abhorant, as is all American backed official news outlets. I use lemmy, did you really think that I watch state provided news? Or was that an ad hominim because people here dislike Fox specifically? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago I appreciate the apology for the jab and i as well apologize for seeming somewhat resistant and bitter. Most of my problem with china comes from how they handle the digital front and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for how they treat their citizens, so it's really hard for me to imagine they're doing socialism correctly. I will probably go and look into the sources you linked. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies) load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 year ago* (2 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child) I will admit, I have not read the source theory, but I engage often with communists (most of my immidiate sphere are communists) enough to get a lot of it (I am actually an Anarcho-Communist, just to note). But my problem, as always, with a lot of you people who are obsessed with trying to use China as an example of communism, is the fact that theory and practice are two very different things. Very few places if any even follow your own theory from what I have gleaned from other comrades. It is also really easy to pressure people to give the answers you want to for those kind of questions if you are an authoritarian state. Also from the cyber security sector, most citizens of China desperately try and get their hands on vpns or use tor in order to be able to actually access the external world, which is never a good sign and does not scream "We're free!" to me. Also fox news is abhorant, as is all American backed official news outlets. I use lemmy, did you really think that I watch state provided news? Or was that an ad hominim because people here dislike Fox specifically? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago I appreciate the apology for the jab and i as well apologize for seeming somewhat resistant and bitter. Most of my problem with china comes from how they handle the digital front and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for how they treat their citizens, so it's really hard for me to imagine they're doing socialism correctly. I will probably go and look into the sources you linked. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child) I will admit, I have not read the source theory, but I engage often with communists (most of my immidiate sphere are communists) enough to get a lot of it (I am actually an Anarcho-Communist, just to note). But my problem, as always, with a lot of you people who are obsessed with trying to use China as an example of communism, is the fact that theory and practice are two very different things. Very few places if any even follow your own theory from what I have gleaned from other comrades. It is also really easy to pressure people to give the answers you want to for those kind of questions if you are an authoritarian state. Also from the cyber security sector, most citizens of China desperately try and get their hands on vpns or use tor in order to be able to actually access the external world, which is never a good sign and does not scream "We're free!" to me. Also fox news is abhorant, as is all American backed official news outlets. I use lemmy, did you really think that I watch state provided news? Or was that an ad hominim because people here dislike Fox specifically? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago I appreciate the apology for the jab and i as well apologize for seeming somewhat resistant and bitter. Most of my problem with china comes from how they handle the digital front and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for how they treat their citizens, so it's really hard for me to imagine they're doing socialism correctly. I will probably go and look into the sources you linked. permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (-1 replies)
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 year ago* (1 child) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 1 child comment replies: [–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago I appreciate the apology for the jab and i as well apologize for seeming somewhat resistant and bitter. Most of my problem with china comes from how they handle the digital front and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for how they treat their citizens, so it's really hard for me to imagine they're doing socialism correctly. I will probably go and look into the sources you linked. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] basiclemmon98@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago I appreciate the apology for the jab and i as well apologize for seeming somewhat resistant and bitter. Most of my problem with china comes from how they handle the digital front and has kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for how they treat their citizens, so it's really hard for me to imagine they're doing socialism correctly. I will probably go and look into the sources you linked. permalink fedilink source parent