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  • [–] 36 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I'm not going to engage with this poster specifically since they seem to be trolling, but if anyone else cares I did some research.

    The image they posted is from a site called World Animal Foundation, and their information comes from only one source: dogsbite.org (incorrectly spelled Dog Bite org above).

    dogsbite.org's primary concern is self-disclosed as being the gathering of data of fatal dog attacks in an effort to increase knowledge of what they consider to be dangerous breeds with what they say is the intention of advocating for victims.

    https://www.dogsbite.org/dogsbite-about.php

    This means the organization is not focused primarily on non-biased academic research. They're interested in proving a theory that they believe to be true, primarily, that pit bulls are dangerous and should be banned.

    Their methodology involves primarily scanning a vast amount of media outlets for dog attacks with some supplemental coverage. Their identification methods seem to primarily be photos and social media. They do not mention DNA or professional veterinary verification.

    https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-fatality-citations-data-collection.php

    I would determine the organization's data is compromised by several forms of bias, including reporting bias, confirmation bias, publication bias, and observer bias. You can find a brief overview of biases in the link below.

    https://casp-uk.net/news/different-types-of-research-bias/

    Proper data collection should be handled by a third party and the research should also be reviewed by a third party.

    An article published by JAVMA in 2000 investigates the issues of expensive DNA testing, and the importance of reliable identification.

    https://www.avma.org/sites/default/files/resources/javma_000915_fatalattacks.pdf?trk=public_post_comment-text

    Another article published in 2022 by the National Canine Research Council concluded that breed was not a good indicator for behavior.

    https://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/research_library/ancestry-inclusive-dog-genomics-challenges-popular-breed-stereotypes/

    **tldr; **

    Maybe don't just blindly trust a single infographic from random strangers on the internet.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    For anyone reading the above comment, please note the dishonesty in the presentation of the studies. One of them states:

    In contrast to what has been reported in the news media, the data from this study CANNOT be used to infer any breed-specific risk for dog bite fatalities (e.g., neither pit bull-type dogs nor Rottweilers can be said to be more “dangerous” than any other breed based on this study).

    So just be careful in taking anything in the comment at face value.

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  • [–] 36 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    The problem is the misuse of statistics. I want to see a chart that looks at number of child attacks based on if the dog was trained to attack people or defend a home. From there, look at breed.

    People buy and train pitbulls for protection. It's called a confounding factor.

    If you look at just the result but not the cause you miss the point. That's how people use statistics to lie. That's why you're getting shit.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)
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  • [–] 25 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    I don't know why you brought that discussion up when the dog in the picture is clearly an all-black mastiff...

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    That sort of misidentification is another reason that dog bite statistics are unreliable; they depend not on rigorous breed identification but on amateurs' identification based on physical traits shared by bull dogs, mastiffs and terriers. Artificially group dog bite reports involving a dozen unrelated breeds or mixes together under the misidentification "pit bull" and yeah, you make pit bulls sound scary.

    Even when properly applied to pit bull type dogs, the term "pit bull" is imprecise because as wikiipedia states "pit bull is an umbrella term for several types of dog believed to have descended from bull and terriers. In the United States, the term is usually considered to include the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bully, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and sometimes the American Bulldog, along with any crossbred dog that shares certain physical characteristics with these."

    Anyone who argues that breed is a reliable indicator of violent behavior and refuses to acknowledging the lack of reliability of eye witness breed identification on the basis of appearance is arguing in bad faith.

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  • [–] 44 points 1 year ago (21 children)

    This "data" may be true, it is not my field of research, but the org it comes from seem shady...

    DogsBite.org accuses several organizations of being "co-opted by the 'pit bull lobby', a shady cabal that supporters of the site imply is financed by dogfighters."

    "The site's founder is also contemptuous of people in the relevant sciences, including those at the AVMA, the CDC, the Animal Behavior Society, etc. She refers to them as 'science whores,' which alone is enough to discredit her claims."

    In an article in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, R. Scott Nolen states that "DogsBite.org's claim that pit bull–type dogs were responsible for 65 percent of the deaths during that 12-year period (2005-2016) is disputed by some groups as inaccurate and misleading.

    When you just show a infograph like this with no context, you are doing the same thing as the far right is doing with crime stats and immigrants. And you compare others to MAGA? If the data turns out to be true or not, you are still not taking the subject matter seriously.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    Can you then elaborate on the little reference tag -- I assume it is a reference -- to "Dog Bite org"?

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago*

    The question was for the source of the image, not the general point. You can restate your point with new sources, but then say that.

    The og image provides what looks like a source, and ofc it could be that wikipedia etc. also cite that, or "dog bite org" cites one of them (and thus the image isn't sourced correctly), however your screenshots don't even match the 66% figure, all giving different values, so clearly they are not the source or using the same source as the image.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Sorry, I underestimated your reading comprehension. Inthe infographic you provided, what does the "Dog Bite org" refer to? I'm not asking for other stats. I'm not asking for other sources. I'm asking about the infographic you provided. So, please, go on.

    Also, I am not claiming to provide anything. I just have some doubt on the source material on that infographic.

    None of the linked screenshots appear to be a proper source, certainly not mentioning "Dog Bite org". The first one seems to be from wikipedia, which is fine, albeit not a source, they are probably properly sourced. But that one seems to claim a 20-something percentage number and not the 60-something number in the infographic. If I misread the stats, I'm sure you'll correct me. Still, it is the original infographic that I'm concerned with.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Do you even read what you post? Yes, I claimed that the source is bad (not necessarily "invalid", but unreliable). You then said it is not the actual source. I asked you to clarify the actual source, and you: 1. Provide a source contradicting yours, with exactly the same backing as I had for doubting it: AVMA 2. Imply that "DogBite" is the source, hence not only contradicting yourself but also a separate source you used. This is bare minimum critical thinking skills missing here. What I think you are doing is pursuing the subject with a confirmation bias. You believe pit bulls to be dangerous, hence every source which supports that is valid. But that appears not to be true, by the data you yourself have provided. They both support your claim to some degree, but the data does not agree. It is nonsense.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You say "alright", like you are responding to what I'm saying. And you are not at all. Then you are so increadibly dishonest it is unbelivable. The study you quote as saying

    As in recent years, Rottweilers were the most commonly reported breed involved in fatal attacks, followed by pit bull-type dogs

    As support for your opinion that pit bulls are dangerous. It has a preamble statement to the article, which if you read, you would not be referencing this article. It says:

    In contrast to what has been reported in the news media, the data from this study CANNOT be used to infer any breed-specific risk for dog bite fatalities (e.g., neither pit bull-type dogs nor Rottweilers can be said to be more “dangerous” than any other breed based on this study).

    and that is their emphasis.

    You cannot cherry pick data or quotes from studies to try and claim they support something the studies themselves say they cannot be used to support. It is missleading, it is anti-scientific, and so increadibly dishonest.

    Something supporting your broader claim may be found in one of the other studies. I'm not saying it may not. But I would not trust a word of what you say about anything. You ignore the critique I bring up. Try to gish gallop your way out of it, ending up just lying in the process.

    And nothing has anything to do with my original issue with your post. You just made it worse all on yoir own.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Are you saying this just because you are angry, or your actual rational conclusion? Because my claim was that the infograph used a bullshit source, and I doubted the figure due to it. Then you provided another source from another org, AVMA, stating a different number, proving that the graph was bull. Not only that, that source organisation, AVMA, was also the same that I used to claim that "Dog bite org" looked shady.

    What claim do you want me to source? That "dog bite org" appears to be bull? That is basically the only attempt at a claim I have made. Well, AVMA is my source then. You linked them. Read them.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Ignoring the previous discussion and talking about those new screenshots, the third looks very untrustworthy at first glance.
    Emotional images, pitbulls named by name in the header navigation, sounds like a single-purpose activist page. It's like going to peta expecting honest information about changing to a vegan diet or smthn.

    The second image (srsly you could have put links below ffs) I dug up and it's some kind of property developer, could well be they profit off of fear of dogs or smthn, and going to the actual page they just quote other articles incorrectly anyway. They also misleadingly throw rottweilers into it for some reason, while in the linked article it's 60% with at least partial pitbull bloodline (note this being incorrectly simplified to "pitbulls", which is at best sloppy), and 7% rottweiler bloodline, which is just misleading throwing those together without further comment. That also ofc fits the idea that the page just wants to stir up fear for whatever reason.

    Both of these pages are, frankly, trash. Do yourself a favor and remove them as arguments. If your point is correct, those would still make you look so dishonest in arguing it, it makes it look wrong; they are worse than not citing anything.

    Now painfully scraping out the wiki article (Fatal dog attacks in the United States) -fucking link your shit man-, that article seems unproblematic at first glance.

    Going into the actual sources now, the 60% thing linked earlier refers to "fuicelle & lee" which is not a paper to the best of my search ability, and is only ever mentioned on other pages copying the exact same paragraph around, ... so yeah that's sketchy.
    The wikipedia thing I just hope is accurate (I'll take lt as accurate without checking here), but you gotta note it is a low sample size, half the percentage your other stuff claims (28%), and from seemingly only 2 specific locations.

    I'd sure be interested if you can find any other statistics that don't just evaporate when you look for a source tho.


    Starting another topic, what if you had clear statistics that a lot of dog damage is done by pitbulls? That doesn't instantly get you to proving the issue is with pitbulls. It's ye olde correlation isn't causation problem.
    One example: Imagine insecure people compensating with pitbulls due to their brand image. Then those people tend to suck as dog owners so you get cases of horrible mistraining. Now if you were to ban pitbulls, or make their ownership "non-badass" via say cage or muzzle requirements, the badass dog brand would shift and those people would mistrain other dogs, the statistics would change to a new breed and the deaths would not decrease. Because in that chain of causation the core issue is the group of owners, and you merely measure the average type of dog those problematic owners get.

    This is a hypothetical naturally, but that's why a simple "x % of deaths are caused by y dogs" isn't enough.


    Before you argue allegiances, I don't like dogs, especially not ones with jumpy or agressive character. I also don't have experience with dogs.
    Your arguments and my checking of them was the first actual argument on favor of pitbulls I have seen in a long time, I could still be convinced pretty easily that there is some issue with the breed.

    I should be the prime target audience for you to convince. Uninformed, heard anecdotes about pitbulls bad, absolutely no inherent favor or attachment to the breed (they just don't look good sorry dog people). I should be trivially easy to convince, so please work on your argument.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It is not much better. Note that one of the sources of the one commenting explicitly states

    In contrast to what has been reported in the news media, the data from this study CANNOT be used to infer any breed-specific risk for dog bite fatalities (e.g., neither pit bull-type dogs nor Rottweilers can be said to be more “dangerous” than any other breed based on this study).

    Which is the commenters purpose in referencing that study. The study explicitly says it does not support their opinion.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Yeah, I do explain the same further down, didn't see the need to specifically highlight that. Much better doesn't mean good, just a lot better than the first attempt that had almost nothing of substance and was actively off-putting.

    Using a paper to make a point it doesn't support is better than not using papers and citing sketchy factoids.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    So this graph is representative of data over a twelve-year period? If so, that means all the dogs in that graph are entirely less dangerous than anyone would make them seem.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 year ago

    I don't see it as the person you are replying to is talking about the ratio, but the absolute number. Even if it was the case, your "no" to their statement is just wrong. It is literally the next sentence in your quote:

    Pit Bulls were responsible for approximately 66% of fatal dog attacks in 2023. Historically, they have accounted for 66% of fatal attacks—346 out of 521 deaths between 2005 and 2019

    Those are the numbers in the infographic. That is a 12ish year period. "No", is just such a misleading statement. And by your own admission, that is the numbers by "Dog Bite org".

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  • [–] 19 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    First off, the infographic you posted doesn't even spell the name of the propaganda site it cites properly (dogsbite[dot]org). Just because it's a .org doesn't grant it instant legitimacy. It's one woman (Colleen Lynn) with a vendetta. (You don't still believe the disproven and later retracted "study" about vaccines causing autism now, do you?)

    Second, engage in some critical thinking. (I know, you weren't bred to do so - but it isn't your fault!). Do many people keep these several dog breeds for home and family protection, and do they similarly neglect and fail to train their dogs? To use your own irresponsible analogy where several breeds of dogs = guns, yes, many people own guns and don't follow proper safety practices with them. And we've also decided as a society that even with many undereducated people doing stupid things with guns that education is part of a larger solution. Please educate yourself further, unless you're just here to stir up trouble.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    So far you've just called people trolls and kept posting the same link, it seems without even reading the comments you're responding to thoroughy.

    The charity you've linked, world animal foundation seems to be a respectable charity. The problem; and what you're being critisized for; is the source of the statistic they use, which you keep quoting.

    A quick google search shows that that statistic ( from dogsbite.org, as shown on your linked article) does not reflect actual results, as shown by studies from both the american dog breeders association and the national library of medicine.

    Another article from world animal foundation paints a picture of pitbulls as not significantly more aggressive than other breeds if you ignore the statistics provided by dogsbite.org, which I hope at this is no longer considered a legitimate source [1, 2 ].

    If you can list any sources not originally from dogsbite.org or quoting them, I'd be happy to read through those and reconsider my position.

    EDITS: formatting

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  • [–] 18 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    You're being downvoted because of your ignorance

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  • [–] 13 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    And this is why you are ignorant

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    The reason for the "poor discussion" is because that infographic comes from the only "source" the anti-pitbull types have that supports their argument, and we've been telling them for probably over a decade now that their source is shit and has been debunked countless times my new information. So we're all a bit tired of seeing the same misinformation over and over again.

    In other words, find a new slant.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah see I was gonna write up this whole big comment actually listing a bunch of sources debunking all your shit, but I see a whole fuck load of people in this thread have already done that, and you've responded to nearly every single one by plugging your fingers in your ears and going "neener neener you're a troll"

    So yeah, you're not worth the effort

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    That's not a pitbull, it's a Cane corso or another type of mastiff. That people so frequently misidentify various breeds as "pit bulls" is one of the factors that makes the statistics you cite unreliable. Even "pit bull" isn't a specific breed designation. Any breed or mix with a boxy head and deep chest is likely to be mistaken for a pit bull.

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  • [–] 30 points 1 year ago (18 children)
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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I think it's a casual argument. People are saying pitbulls are not inherently more violent, they just tend to be the dog of choice for people who want violent (guard) dogs. They are then taught violent behaviors by their owners.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I think you meant causal but I get your point.

    I believe that dog breeds have inherent traits that they are bred for. Yes of course the nature vs nurture argument always comes into play but it's not a coincidence some dogs love water and will naturally point without any training and others won't.

    Also that's not even getting into the physical make up of a pit bull. They just are more dangerous by that alone, higher bite force, harder to get them to let go, fat head, big chomps - I think it's irresponsible and morally reprehensible for them to be bred.

    Short of mass euthanasia they are not going away but I wholeheartedly believe they shouldn't be rehomed or kept in shelters so I suppose inevitably my belief would lead to them being euthanized instead of ever adopted out.

    There is no good solution and I get people have pitbulls that don't attack or harm people but their proclivity for violence is well documented and understood. It's just that people would rather believe their feels over facts and black and white statistics.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (5 children)

    The most unfriendly dog I ever walked as a volunteer for a dog rescue was a black lab named Charlie. Instantly wanted to tear the throat out of anyone who looked at him.

    Black labs are inherently violent. They should all be put down.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Corgis are herding dogs. They’re bred to nip at the heels of animals like sheep. They’ll do this to children, too. Toddlers.

    They’re bred this way on purpose. They’re inherently violent and should all be put down.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    It's a dumb as fuck argument because pit bulls are no more dangerous than a similarly sized dog of any other breed.

    "I would rather be bit by a 20lbs kickable dog than a 40-80lbs dog with actual size" is not some type of profound statement.

    I wonder how much time people like you actually spend around dogs? Everyone who I've met who actually does, knows pretty well that breed is very poor indicator of aggression.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    every pit i've met has been a huge sweetie, and i'm instinctively scared of dogs since i got bit when i was a small child. i think they can smell it and turn on the love, kind of like when a cat can tell you're allergic and wants to make you more allergic.

    english bulldogs, on the other hand, i am not comfortable with. maybe it's because the one family in town who has them are assholes.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago

    The American pitbull is a breed, though there are others.

    The dogs are notorious for their violence and literally were bred to fight. If you think a Labrador retriever is naturally a good retriever because it's been bred for those traits it's not exactly hard to see how a dog bred for generations to literally kill for sport might be problematic.

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