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[–] 252 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (40 children)

Reason n+1 for me being thankful for switching to GrapheneOS.

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  • [–] 39 points 4 months ago (32 children)

    How’s the app support? I want to switch if/when the Motorola phones come out, but I’m wondering how many of my apps/services I’ll have to abandon.

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  • [–] 73 points 4 months ago* (23 children)

    Almost everything just works after installing sandboxed Google Play Services. For a few apps you have to tweak a setting to turn off some of GrapheneOS's exploit protections. But I've found very few that refuse to run, and nothing indispensable. If you don't like your main profile having Play Services you can set them up under a second profile or a private area and keep the apps that use them away from your main profile.

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  • [–] 19 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    The other thing that might be a dealbreaker for you is no contactless payments with things like google wallet will work. But you could always just attach your credit card to the back of your phone and :tada: it works again lol

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  • [–] 22 points 4 months ago (8 children)

    Contactless payments technically work fine, just not via Google Wallet. Banks that have their own tap to pay app usually don't have that problem.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    You must be lucky to have such banks in your country.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    There's several EU countries that do. Some of them as part of a push for sovereignty, but most, I think, cause they developed their solutions before Google Wallet was enabled in that country.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    I'm unaware of anyone but curve, and curve seem to shadow-ban you for having rooted or weird phones and then claim kyc failure. In general they are quite shady and have poor customer service.

    You know any other ones? Would be very useful since I think anyone in the eurozone could then use those.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

    Here in Germany, it's pretty much Sparkassen and Volksbanken. One are city/state owned, the others are pretty much a co-op.

    This is pretty Germany specific. Heard from friends elsewhere they had some luck with local options, but don't have a list Handy rn.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    That's actually very promising. It's europe, I should just go and see if I can open an account with them even without german residence.
    Do they have decent online-banking and savings accounts?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    No.

    Well, it really depends. Both aren't one single big bank, but a lot of semi-connected local banks. They are huge disparities in what e.g. Sparkasse München and Sparkasse Hinterpfaffenhofen can offer. The bigger ones mostly have proper online services, but might require a letter for some stuff.

    Regarding savings accounts - from what I've seen, most of the products they offered weren't really competitive, and mostly relied on you not shopping around. Volksbanken, as a co-op, allow you to buy shares in the bank, which can have a pretty good return, but there is a relatively low limit on how many shares a single person can own, so no one can have outsized voting power.

    So, bit of a mixed bag, really.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    Hm, that's a harsh price then.
    Even ignoring having to figure out how to send letters, I noticed they seem to have fees for having an account, and the lowest I noticed with a visa debit card was over 10€/month, while the lowest with EC was technically 3€/ but charged for transactions, so the lowest sane one was 7€/.

    So if I can't move my account entirely and would use those as a second account, which it looks like I'd have to, I'd basically pay a significant monthly subscription fee for mobile payment.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago*

    Yeah, it's a lot to enable mobile payment. Personally, I just bought myself a nice wallet. Much less hassle.

    Also, conditions will vary depending on which Sparkasse/Volksbank you look at (they're all independent and might have very different fee and offer structures), but they'll likely all have more fees than most large private banks.

    The thing is, they have some good projects like these independent mobile payment apps, and are great for giving out loans to smaller, regional businesses, but as banks for private users, they definetely aren't the best available.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Ive only got one gripe with it and its the requirement for RCS. I do prefer to use signal but genuinely only one person I know has gotten on to it. I hate using google messages but for folks that send me bulk pictures from iOS its just a hassle until there's a Foss one that works but there isnt to my knowledge. I do know RCS only works on the main profile goo

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    There was no work profile support when I last tried to convert. deal breaker, atm.

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  • [–] 14 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    That has been working fine for years at this point.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    me and the other folks trying to get this working disagree. there are several threads about it on the GOS forum.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Yeah, I was thinking of separate profiles in general, and had never encountered the concept of an employer controlled separate profile. When I needed a device for something work related, I usually got issued a phone.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    0% of the apps/methods available at the time worked with my employers setup. I did everything except the adb method. ended up getting a crap phone for work. it just sits on my desk anyway.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Oh, you mean a profile set up by your employer. Actually, dunno whether that works. I never let any employer touch a personal device.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    that is the point of the work profile when used as the non-primary profile.

    same phone; but work profile cannot see or interact with the primary profile or configure the device. if the corporate account is used as the primary, they can wipe the phone remotely.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Some bank apps may not work, but you can check by searching for you bank name + GrapheneOS

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I switched a few months ago and overall its been an excellent experience. Some pitfalls though:

    1. Banking apps may not work, Santander in the UK for example but I'm going to transfer away from them
    2. Contactless pay through google wallet doesn't work, I couldn't find a way to attach a card to the back of my phone and also keep pixel snap usable so I bought a small pixel snap wallet that works nicely
    3. Recently Volkswagen and vw group enabled google play attestation for their app and not hardware attestation, so my cars app no longer works. This is probably the most frustrating for me because as an EV owner there's no other way to track the charge of your car other than via the app. This is particularly annoying when using public charge points and you can't track the charge progress when walking away from the car. First world problem, I can just leave it alone and let it charge without keeping an eye on it but that's annoying to me, I'm sure I'll get over it.
    4. Because of the above, I'm concerned other apps may start to follow suit. For example "too good to go" in the UK is "not compatible" with my device from the play store because it doesn't pass the play attestation... Hopefully it's not a trend.

    Overall though I would highly recommend. All the other main features work flawlessly.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago

    One of my banking apps enabled Google Play attestation. It's really infuriating. I don't understand the point either - AFAIK all apps need to be signed with the dev's private key anyway, don't they? If they are then why would anyone care where I downloaded it from?

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  • [–] 29 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Doesn't help if someone you're talking to has it on. And unlike Zuck's stupid glasses you won't even be able to know unless you ask every single person you talk to first. This sucks.

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  • [–] -5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    You still gave your money to Google for the phone....

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  • [–] 116 points 4 months ago* (6 children)

    Welcome to your "I only buy vintage tech" era.

    Mine started when 3.5 mm audio jacks started disappearing. We all draw a line.

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  • [–] 16 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Alternatively - the pocket computer revolution is beginning. Hell, many in my tech circles are making cyberdecks and the sorts with hopes of only using a phone to make and receive calls. Disconnect from the 'big' in Big Tech, not the tech :D

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    Technology divergence is inevitable after corporations saw that convergence into an “all in one device” made their work much simpler.

    No surprise feature phones, MP3 players and dedicated-use devices are making a comeback. My wish is for full pocket computers to return.

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  • [–] 12 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Well there are adapter cables USB-C to 3.5mm. On my previous phone in my car I used a splitting cable to power it while using the 3.5mm as input to the car radio. However on my new phone Samsung decided to not support it anymore -.-

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago

    I'm going off memory here, but I think this was an issue way back with some phones having DAC hardware built in, and others skipping that hardware in exchange for requiring dongles that included such?

    Maybe you just need to find a new dongle? Hopefully that helps and sorry if it doesn't, but I'd rather just have a headphone jack back and skip all the complications...

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    They don't always work good. I've tried many even Apple versions. It's finicky somewhat for the audio to pickup like in a car with an aux to the adapter to phone usbc. They do work. Just not perfect. Still prefer 3.5mm jacks and wired headphones. Wireless junk has almost always been a scam to me. Batteries and bluetooth wear out.

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  • [–] 94 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Motorola needs to release those GrapheneOS compatible phones now 💀

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  • [–] 67 points 4 months ago

    Fucking yikes

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  • [–] 67 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Constant surveillance 😡

    Audio memories 😍

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  • [–] 60 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    If a song isn’t recognized, a short digital fingerprint may be sent to Google to securely search the cloud. Background conversations and audio are never sent to Google.

    And, of course, Google will honor this and any other setting, as always, right? Right?

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  • [–] 19 points 4 months ago

    As soon as they got away with "federated learning" (basically use your phone to train ai then just phone the results home rather than your data) 🤢 they knew they could just keep pushing and pushing and pushing until they have it all

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  • [–] 13 points 4 months ago

    If you've got an android, go into your phone's dev options and try to turn off Google's location tracking service, or the one that tracks screen inputs, or the one that checks what wifi networks are around you.

    They've been dishonourable from day 1 :C

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  • [+] 50 points 4 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Probably something people aren't thinking about. How would this even work in two party consent states/countries?

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  • [–] 9 points 4 months ago

    The same way slopgen cleverly went around seemingly unbendable coryright laws: by ignoring the shit out of it, and half-scaring half-bribing the governments and the public to allow them to do whatever the fuck they want.

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  • [–] 44 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    Illegal in Germany. You may not record conversations, if you try to enter something like that as evidence you'll get punished as well.

    I suspect there are many countries with laws like that, and if your phone actually disables the feature when you enter them or just let's you hang to dry...

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Doubt. The law likely talks about making unauthorized recordings. There is likely nothing in the law that would disallow automatic transcription if no recording is created.

    Unless the law is extremely vague such as “it is unlawful for a microphone to pick up conversations” the law likely doesn’t cover this situation.

    I am more than happy (and eager) to be proven wrong, but in my experience the law tends to lag behind tech by quite a bit.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I didn't check the actual law, always a good idea to do so.

    So, §201 StGB actually covers both, it is forbidden to "aufnehmen" (record) as well as "mithören" (spy on). Bonus, its forbidden to cite transcription (im Wortlaut mitteilen).

    Its an old law, going back to video cameras with magnetic tape and actually tapping a phone line. So it was used quite often, including the mentioned fake surveillance cameras, that didn't record or even view anything but seemed to the public they did.

    When dashcams became a thing people would be sentenced for using them. These days you can use dashcams, but never save for more than 24h or show the recording to anyone but the police/court.

    I guess the law is a relict of living next door to Stasi, but its really just a guess of mine.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    If huge tech corps are good at anything, it's swerving around laws or simply deciding to ignore them.

    They'll argue that since you consented, it's not spying.

    And they'll put something in the terms that it's your responsibility to inform people around that your or their conversations will be recorded (lol, as if anyone would - but they'll claim that as a defence).

    And if they end up in court and get fined, even millions is just a slap on the wrist compared to how much they made from all that juicy data.

    Laws will not stop them.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    Google is not breaking the (German) law here, it actually is your responsibility as a user to not spy on people. Failure to do so means up to three years in jail, for a first offender most likely a fine. And your device that you used to break the law might get confiscated.

    The later was already the case when people used radar warner apps (banned on Germany as well) and lost their smartphone for that.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    if you try to enter something like that as evidence you’ll get punished as well.

    They'll just use parallel construction

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    No need to, there is no fruit of the poisonous tree in German law. Police can strip search you in bright daylight on a crowded square for no reason - clearly illegal, bit what they find will be used to proscute you. The officers will be punished as well, at most with a stern talking to.

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  • [–] 41 points 4 months ago

    Um, oh fuck no.

    The reams of personally-identifiable information that will leak is insane.

    We're not allowed to have Siri and Alexa listening when we're working, lest a stray word on a phone call from the home office risks a privacy breach.

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  • [–] 79 points 4 months ago (22 children)

    The people who called me crazy because "there's no way your phone can be listening in on you all the time" are the same people who are going to be the most excited about this "feature"

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (20 children)

    How did these people expect "Hey Siri" / "Hey Google" to work?

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago* (19 children)

    Im a perfect world, as they claim, its a secondary system listening that isn't recording or transmitting anything, and is meant to be low power. If it hears the wake up word, it wakes up the other mic and starts recording.

    Thats how they claim the smart speakers work anyway.

    This would be different.

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  • [+] 5 points 4 months ago (5 children)
  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    It doesn't need to, that's the issue, there is so much other data you are generating that can be harvested. Nothing you talk about is completely random, so it's incredibly easy to build profiles about you, without listening to a single word.

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  • [+] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)
  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I think you'd be surprised, there is always a connection. Oh some middle aged millennial waxing poetic about nostalgia? Wow, totally haven't heard that before, and it's certainly not the singular thing every company is capitalizing on in media currently. No, you are absolutely unique and Google is simply listening to every conversation about you.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago*

    I had this happen many years ago, to the point there was no chance something wasn't listening. We suspected it was my partners iPhone with Facebook installed before they got better about preventing abuse like that, as it was a Facebook ad that showed up.

    Were talking about something where we never use the product, would never use the product, but it came up in a conversation just between the 2 of us, and there were ads the next day.

    It happened a few times.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (11 children)

    "How they claim?" Is there no way to confirm that?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago

    I have a memory of people black boxing it and seeing power usage and network traffic that supported the claims but that was a snapshot in time and as others note its all proprietary.

    It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but you can lose it in a minute.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    They ship with proprietary code, this would be the point of open source.

    In practice in my experience, every company is at least skirting the law regarding privacy, and I never worked for one big enough that could lobby itself out of a fine.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    would this not be detectable by tracking the data sent through your network?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I used to run forensic network capture and analysis tools.

    First thing, traffic is encrypted. All you will see is a blob of traffic passing through. You used to see hostnames with TLS, but now with quic, you see nothing. This makes it hard.

    You could root the phone and install a root ca certificate for a decrypting proxy, you might see more, but the data itself (not just the transport protocol) could be encoded or even encrypted within the network encapsulation.

    Next, you'd have to reverse engineer the protocol if they're using something nonstandard. Also, malware can often be set up to "behave" when it can detect analysis. I'm all but certain Google would do this.

    Maybe you could do statistical analysis of the traffic and attempt to baseline normal vs when it's transmitting audio. It would be a bit of a blind guess at best.

    If I had more time, I'd love to try it. I have an old pixel7 pro. Maybe I can sort something out.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    People have already done that and shown that no the device isn't listening to you 24/7 and sending all your data out. There are plenty of papers on the subject, and it makes sense. Why record, decode and analyze all audio when your digital footprint is so much easier to compile and analyze. People aren't random, so it's easy to put them into statistical buckets of how to target them. Here is one reference paper (of many): https://recon.meddle.mobi/papers/panoptispy18pets.pdf

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    You look for network traffic. You might not be able to see inside the packets, but you can know when they're sending packets, and how many. As far as I know, voice assistant systems that claim to use a secondary local circuit to detect calls are telling the truth.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (1 child)

    That's kind of what I was wondering, I figured this as well as a way to track that it is at least sending data at unusual times. Someone else in this thread explained that actually determining what that data is would be difficult yeah: https://lemmy.world/post/48510943/24408747

    I don't know enough about system security or forensics to evaluate this, but it does make sense based on what I know.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago*

    I dont know. You'd need to reverse engineer the hardware and software to be confident, and could a OTA update then sneak a bypass in anyway?

    Edit: i think Amazon might have abandoned this as well and always records on echos now too.

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  • [–] 6 points 4 months ago

    Doesn't need to track you all the time to know exactly who you are and what you're up to.

    Continuously monitoring is such a waste of their resources, they already know everything about you, they just need to check in now and then to make sure you're buying the correct t-shirts.

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  • [–] 32 points 4 months ago

    I saw this title and immediately said "fuck off" then clicked, and ..glad to see OP sharing my immediate sentiment.

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