225
Courage (lemmy.ml)
submitted 2 days ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
171 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] -4 points 1 day ago (11 children)

I want to ask a personal question, direct and no sarcasm, if that's OK. A question to you and to @Dessalines.

Do you rather support Russia or Ukraine? Do you rather support Palestine or Israel?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 11 child comments
    •
  • [–] 22 points 1 day ago (9 children)

    I stand with the Palestinians without reservation and against the state of Israel.

    As for Russia & Ukraine, here’s an info dump.

    Previously:

    Honest question from a non-communist, based on your reply here. Does one need to support Putin to be a Marxist?

    In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.

    Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.

    Previously:

    Previously:

    Previously:

    NATO expansion:

     
    NATO in general:

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 9 child comments
    •
  • [+] -12 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    Thank you for the answer.

    I wholeheartedly agree with you on the topic of Palestine and Israel, with strong support for the freedom and independence of Palestine and against the state of Israel.

    I'm very thrown aback by your stance on the topic of Ukraine and Russia. In particular:

    In a few more words, support for Russia ... is only a partial, temporary, tactical one

    To me, that is atrocious. It's a bit like you see a bully beating another person to a pulp on the street, and you say you support this action as a partial, temporary, tactical support. Whichever great cause is set on a pedestal (such as supporting the bully in order for later to overthrow them, what could possibly go wrong), it is a crime to support it.

    Right now, the best thing that can happen to Russia, I believe, is stopping the war. That is possible only if Russia as an aggressor country is stopped, and a peace treaty is forced on Russia, whether with Putin alive or not does not matter.

    I have trouble processing this world view from an admin of lemmy.ml. I will need to take my time to process this information.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 6 child comments
    •
  • [–] 10 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

    To me, that is atrocious.

    So, you think that the rest of the world does not have a right to defend itself against the most prolific invader in the world - NATO - that also happens to be committing at least one high-profile genocide right now?

    Right now, the best thing that can happen to Russia, I believe, is stopping the war.

    How would that benefit Russia (or the rest of the Global South, for that matter), and not just help the most prolific invader in the world?

    That is possible only if Russia as an aggressor country is stopped, and a peace treaty is forced on Russia

    So, the most prolific invader in the world doing a coup against a neighbouring state and trying to amass military personnel and weapons on one's border is suddenly not aggression? You think that that is perfectly okay and should not be acted upon?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 18 points 1 day ago (4 children)

    Your street bully analogy fails spectacularly at really understanding the conflict on a basic level. It treats a complex geopolitical struggle as a random act of individual malice, ignoring the historical trajectory and objective forces at play.

    In 2014, the legitimately elected government of Ukraine was overthrown in a US-backed coup. The subsequent regime empowered nationalist elements as their virulent Russophobia made them a useful proxy for Western capital and NATO expansion.

    This war is many things but it is categorically not an unprovoked assault on an innocent bystander. The new Kyiv government almost immediately launched a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the predominantly Russian-speaking population in the Donbass. The Minsk agreements of 2014 and 2015 expose this dynamic entirely. Kyiv repeatedly violated the terms, refusing to implement the political provisions regarding Donbass autonomy. Ceasefire violations were routine and the shelling of civilian infrastructure in the east continued for close to a decade.

    This material reality forced the populations of Donetsk and Luhansk to organize their own defense. This led to the formation of the LPR and DPR, alongside Crimea moving to reunify with Russia. This civil conflict is the direct precursor to the current war.

    Kyiv was deliberately cultivated as a geopolitical spearhead against Russia. To evaluate Russia's response through the lens of abstract morality is to ignore objective conditions. Russia's actions were a logical and foreseeable reaction to a hostile military infrastructure constructed on its border by a hegemonic power. You cannot isolate a single event from the chain of material cause and effect that produced it.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 4 child comments
    •
  • [+] -14 points 1 day ago (3 children)

    So you support Russia going to war on the territory of another country ~"because other countries did not leave it any choice" or so? The NATO that was mostly forgotten and dormant before Russian's invasion and received a small fraction of its attention and funding now, that same NATO, just did not leave Russia any choice but to attack at all? And Russia absolutely could not avoid invading Ukraine, it just had to do it, in attempts to fix internal Ukranian problems, as perceived by Russia. Oh and the poor populations of Donetsk, legally and otherwise belonging to Ukraine, had to be invaded too and their lives are now improving?

    What you're saying is shameful. You're not even giving Ukraine autonomy in your explanation of the "geopolitical struggle". You're saying "US" and "Russia", but not "Ukranian people chose to _".

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 3 child comments
    •
  • [–] 9 points 18 hours ago

    The NATO that was mostly forgotten and dormant before Russian’s invasion

    ???
    Did you miss things like the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Iran, the genocide of Palestine - things that have been very high-profile and happening this century.

    And Russia absolutely could not avoid invading Ukraine

    Okay, suggest an alternative course of action for a state whom the most prolific invader is gathering forces on the border of, or nearby, especially after subjugating nearby countries.

    You’re not even giving Ukraine autonomy in your explanation

    Why do you care about the autonomy of states (i.e. the freedom of rulers of those states to do whatever they want), rather than the well-being of the vast majority of people in the world?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 17 points 1 day ago

    I very specifically did not declare support or condemnation. Subjective moralizing is irrelevant to analyzing historical reality. Explaining the material causes of an event is not the same as endorsing it. My point was that Russia's actions were a logical and foreseeable reaction to objective conditions, not that they operated with some metaphysical lack of choice.

    Your claim that NATO was dormant or forgotten is historically illiterate. In the decade preceding this conflict, that same alliance bombed and destabilized multiple sovereign nations, including Libya and Afghanistan. It is not a defensive pact that suddenly woke up. It is an expanding military bloc.

    Any state would perceive a foreign-backed coup and a hostile military buildup on its border as a direct threat. This is basic geopolitical reality, exactly as it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Expecting a major power to passively accept its border being turned into a staging ground for a rival hegemon is naive.

    You speak of Ukrainian self-determination while offering blatant apologetics for the eight-year shelling of the Donbas and the suppression of Crimea. True autonomy was discarded in 2014. The majority of the Ukrainian population did not choose the current path of perpetual war and subordination to Western interests. That is precisely why a forceful coup was required to install the current regime, sparking the civil war that escalated into the current conflict.

    Analyzing how and why events happen requires looking at material reality, not retreating into abstract ravings about street bullies and metaphysical musts.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [–] 4 points 10 hours ago*

    You’re not even giving Ukraine autonomy in your explanation

    Correct, they don't have autonomy. We, the collective west, took that from them in 2014, and now they're government we installed is trafficking the people of Ukraine like meat.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • [+] -11 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    Would you say that you're wearing imperialist clothes then for the tactical benefit, like a soldier on a secret mission disguised as the enemy?

    Everyone understands Russia is correct to invade because NATO can't be a neighbor, and that NATO is correct to "take" Ukraine because it's possible and useful in keeping Russia in check. The problem is that this is imperialist logic. The common sense that runs the world of zero sum capitalists. The "think of the shareholders" of geopolitics.

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent
  • hideshow 1 child comment
    •
  • [–] 9 points 17 hours ago

    What action do you suggest for a state when the most prolific invader in the world subjugates nearby countries and starts amassing military personnel and equipment on its border or otherwise in position to attack it?

  • permalink
  • fedilink
  • source
  • parent