Oh, and stock markets tend to do well when governments flush the econony with cash. It shouldn't be a surprise that Israel's stock market is doing well while their government spends money on weapons, manpower, et al, to attack its neighbours.

I've never claimed the other side are full of lovely people, thats not point. There you go again with your equivalences. Let me explain, when one person murders a brother and that victim's brother then goes and murders the original murderers brother, two crimes have been committed, and each murderer is answerable for their crimes. You ikplicitly advocate eye for an eye with your tacit support of Israels actions. Eye for an eye simply leads to ongoing feuds, as we see a lot of with Israel and their neighbours, time for a different approach.

You're a massive fan of Israel obviously, but try looking at the experience from the other side. The crimes they've committed aren't forgotten, theres a long history there, and it doesn't do anyone well to ignore one side in favour of the other. The colonial take over of that land, the ongoing persecution of the people i've already mentioned isn't absolved because they've had crimes committed against them. Its perplexing that i have to restate this.

My point about NZ is they're the only country we can rely on to a high degree, not whatever you think i said about their miltary and technological capability. I've said this a couple different ways now.

I think the disconnect is your impressed and argue that we should cleave to powerful allies, whereas i'm impressed and argue that we should cleave to those willing to uphold some semblance of moral values. Until we both realise we aren't valuing the same things here, we won't be able to see the others point of view.

All you said about Israel's economy was a bit wasted, i actually accounted for that and didn't dismiss it. But to ignore the fact their close relationship and support from the United States, and European countries like Britain and France and their efforts in building up that place as an 'unsinkable aircraft carrier' misses the point of why their economy is so 'blessed'. I find it incredible you would ignore that. There are few economies that can sustainably pull themselves up without massive support from benefactors, Israel isn't incredible, its a natural outcome of continued unquestioning investment and support. My point is, thats been put at risk, and made harder since their behaviour since Oct 7th, and now they aren't materially different from their neighbours in that regard.

Left wing progressives don't tend to let go of things. They've been on this train for a long time. I generally find its good to listen to those people, they aren't shunted off on a different tangent like the rest of society so easily is. Thats my experience with left wing progresssives, maybe we've had different interactions there.