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[+] -6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (12 children)

Yes I do want to get nitpicky about it. My understanding is; mammals start out on a default developmental program that leads to what one would call feminine traits. In the presence of testosterone hormones and receptors, parts of that developmental program are masculinized. That’s a graded process in which things can go in unusual ways. Still, the number of sexes, if we want to put a number on it, is 2, with some caveats.
If you want to make a case why is it not 2 but 1, 3, 4, 5, or 6, please do go ahead, I would genuinely love to hear your thoughts. Just please don’t let your answer be “it’s not 2, it’s more complex than that.” Pick a number.

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  • [–] 17 points 6 days ago (11 children)

    ‘If you rule out all the exceptions it’s actually only two’ isn’t impressive to me, sorry. I even gave you an example that isn’t ‘female by default’ with the SRY gene.

    And no, I won’t pick a number. I’m not a geneticist (and I highly doubt you are either), I don’t know every possible chromosome and sex organ configuration (and neither do you). You justify why there are only two sexes when I’ve given you all these examples that clearly aren’t XX and XY.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 days ago

    I’ll put this differently so maybe my position comes through more clearly.

    There are two biological sexes, and not everyone fits neatly into either. If you’re trying to make more categories, each will have a ton of exceptions and you will never have enough categories to cover the case of every human who ever lived or will live.

    Analogy: there’s an island where there are 2 cities. There’s also a hermit living in a trailer up the hills, an airline pilot who travels much for work and occasional stays in one or the other city, and a cowboy who is on the run from the authorities so he never enters a city and camps in the wilderness instead. On this island, there are 2 cities and 3 people who don’t live in either. It would be absurd to say that there are 5 cities on this island.

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  • [–] -3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (9 children)

    But why is it more useful to call every imaginable developmental anomaly a separate sex? If we do that, does sex even mean anything? Definitions are as good as useful the resulting categories are. If you can’t even begin listing the biological sexes that you think we have to consider, what on earth will anyone ever be able to use those categories for? Yes, saying there are males and females is useful categorization of not just humans but many animals, because it captures a pretty significant dimension of individual variability arising from separate developmental programs. The existence of exceptions doesn’t render it useless, you can say “I have male chromosomes but my body developed like a female would “ without requiring a biological sex category covering your specific case.

    Edit: btw this is not the area of genetics and Y is a chromosome not a gene.

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  • [–] 13 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (8 children)

    Why is it useful to pretend these people and sex configurations don’t exist and aren’t part of the full spectrum of humanity? Why does sex only ‘mean anything’ if it’s two sexes only?

    You don’t have to talk about every single sex any time you’re discussing anything sex related, in probably most instances that’s not relevant. But it’s denial to act like they don’t exist or “count” because it makes thing’s more complicated. That’s intellectual cowardice.

    Re your edit:

    btw this is not the area of genetics and Y is a chromosome not a gene.

    You think biological sex isn’t an area of genetics? Sibling, what??

    Also, the SRY gene is not the Y chromosome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-determining_region_Y_protein

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  • [–] -3 points 6 days ago (7 children)

    You know what is intellectual cowardice?

    • its more than 2
    • how many is it?
    • dunno, not a geneticist
    • what is the 3rd?
    • dunno, not a geneticist

    Sex determination is mainly studied in developmental biology.

    y is a chromosome not a gene

    My point exactly.

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  • [–] 7 points 6 days ago (6 children)

    I just named multiple ones for you, what in the hell are you talking about. What I’m refusing to do is put an upper limit on it, because there is a lot going on biologically with sex.

    y is a chromosome not a gene

    My point exactly.

    You literally aren’t even following this conversation. The SRY gene controls testicle and penis development. It is not the Y chromosome. It is usually found on the Y chromosome, but can be on the X chromosome as well. Someone with an XX genotype and an SRY gene will develop a penis and testes, and may go on to father children. Read the Wikipedia article I linked if you need more explanation. You want to tell me someone who was born male and produces sperm is biologically female because of their chromosomes??

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  • [–] -2 points 6 days ago (3 children)

    You actually named androgen insensitivity syndrome, which is a syndrome, not a biological sex. For stupid me who is not following: can you recap what is a biological sex besides male and female that you have told me about?

    You verbatim said:

    The SRY gene is what’s responsible for the formation of testicles and a penis, not the Y gene, so you can also have people who are XX with a typical penis and testicles who can father children.

    To which I responded Y is not a gene.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 days ago (2 children)

    Way to miss the fucking forest for the trees. If I edit that to say chromosome will you suddenly be able to comprehend the rest of my comments about the SRY gene showing up and causing penis/testicular development in people who are XX? Which was also in that comment as well, you just seemingly can’t move past AIS.

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  • [–] 0 points 6 days ago (1 child)

    Dude, you come to comment on my comment and demand me to play by your rules. I stated from the get go that I am not interested in you regurgitating some random chapter of AP biology as a big gotcha. As I said, I am aware that development is complicated, and masculinization can go in all sorts of ways. I still don’t know what is the third sex in your system. Male, female, person with XX chromosome and dick? Would the world be a better place if those were the 3 sexes? Or you have no coherent idea you just enjoy saying achkchually it’s more complicated than that!

    And yes, if you edit your comment to not be wrong, it will no longer be wrong.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 days ago

    You don’t get to tell me how I have to express my opinions or argument and I have no clue why you think you do. I’m also not sure you intended ‘I am uninterested in college level discussions of sex and biology’ to be a self own, but I appreciate the honesty.

    In “my system” (looking at the natural variation of the human body), there isn’t a single “the” third sex. I don’t even see the point in numbering them, frankly, because there’s always going to be some new discovery of a variant of sexual development in humans. It being more complicated than 2-3 is literally the point, it’s like demanding an exact number for how many ways proteins can fold. It’s a fucking lot and we keep finding more, what do you want from me, to just make up a number? I already said for most cases just sticking to male and female is all that’s necessary. That doesn’t make people with other sexes not exist.

    You were the only person that seemed to have trouble understanding my single gene/chromosome typo in context, but I’m glad to have cleared that up for you 🤷‍♂️

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