It’s almost comical how quickly conversations about gender inequality are derailed by “whataboutism.” Women are talking about the right to bodily autonomy? Someone has to remind them that men also face pressures. Women are speaking out about harassment? Well, men get harassed too.

It’s like watching someone run onto the scene of a house fire, waving a burnt piece of toast, screaming, “See? We all suffer!”

The irony is that many of the struggles men do face — mental health stigma, rigid gender roles, toxic masculinity — are products of the same patriarchal system feminists are trying to dismantle.

But instead of joining the fight against systemic oppression, some men would rather spend their time insisting that misandry is just as bad as misogyny.

At the end of the day, we need to be able to call things what they are. Yes, men experience hardship. Yes, some women say mean things about men. But one of those things is a personal grievance, and the other is a global, institutionalized system that has stripped women of rights, freedoms, and even their lives.

When we pretend these two things are equal, we don’t just miss the point, we actively make it harder to solve the real problem.

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[–] 4 points 3 months ago (4 children)

generally those groups either don’t exist or are repugnant

This is a problem for men to solve. No one else can solve it for them. Non-men can ask others for help in learning from the experience of others in how to create and maintain these groups, but the men must do the work.

We all know almost all groups for the empowerment of white people are bad.

White men don't need empowerment. They need healing. Men's groups focused on empowering men are not the men's groups that men need, because men are already empowered.

They mostly are built on hatred of other cultures instead of helping their own culture.

That's a problem for white people to solve. Non-white people can't build groups to fix this for white people.

The same is true for many “men groups”, they are built on hatred of women instead of helping other men.

A problem for men to solve.

As a cis white male I had no group.

This is a problem for cis white men to solve.

Everyone assumes white males have all these advantages so they don’t need a group.

White males DO have all these advantages, and they don't need an empowerment group. If you don't see that, then you may need a men's group.

I just wish there was a group for white men which wasn’t built on hatred

Can I recommend Punch Up or White Men For Racial Justice?

and wasn’t living under a shadow of believing it was secretly for hatred.

That shadow will be there until white men organize themselves to address the problems in their community and support each other in the healing process.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    I agree with everything you are saying except I don't think white men can. I think it will take years to decades of healing to make this possible. Unfortunately we are currently just causing more harm(ice, gop, etc) to ourselves instead of healing.

    Yes it's on white men to encourage these groups, I'm not asking for help or asking for some other group to do it. My only point was at current moment if those groups were made they would be assumed to be hate groups and that makes me sad.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    I agree with everything you are saying except I don’t think white men can.

    They can. You have to use your own experiences of your own healing to establish the belief you need to do the work with optimism or it will never get done.

    I think it will take years to decades of healing to make this possible.

    It's possible today, it's happening today, but it will take centuries, maybe millennia to repair the harm caused over the last 2k years.

    Unfortunately we are currently just causing more harm(ice, gop, etc) to ourselves instead of healing.

    We are not a monolith. The healing and the harming are happening simultaneously.

    Yes it’s on white men to encourage these groups

    No. It's on white men to organize, operate, cultivate, and propagate these groups. It's the work that must be done by white men with white men for white men.

    I’m not asking for help

    You should be.

    or asking for some other group to do it

    Good.

    My only point was at current moment if those groups were made they would be assumed to be hate groups and that makes me sad.

    And you need groups of white men who can share that sadness and hold space for it so that the healing process can occur.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 months ago (1 child)

    It's almost like being the default race and gender and not having to start in the back like the rest of us has a disadvantage of lack of community. Whereas, starting behind white men has caused the rest of us to have to grow our community and talk to each other and do hard things because otherwise we will never see success.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 months ago

    Accurate. That's why white men building community are in a position where they need to ask for help from others outside their community. They have to do the work and they have to lead themselves, but they need advice, guidance, support, education, accountability, etc. and in my experience, if the men are doing the work earnestly, there are non-white-men persons out there willing to provide those things, if even only for a short time and in a limited capacity

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