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[–] Canonical_Warlock@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 3 months ago (1 child)

I'm in the US and I never got any formal education in my trade (HVAC-R). Most of the techs here didn't. The few techs we've hired who did go to trade school came out of it with practically no knowledge which couldn't easily be taught on the job in a couple months. It seems like, for HVAC at least, the tradeschool programs teach enough that maybe you could manage some light residential work, but they barely touch on refrigeration, let alone the heavy commercial and industrial refrigeration we often do. When evaluating candidates, a tradeschool cert means less than a year of experience in some sort of maintenance position.

The same seems to be true of many other trades. At least in my state no certs are required or even beneficial to become a licensed plumber or electrician. Those liscenses are all based solely on years of experience. Technically you can become a master electrician solely with an electrical engineering degree and 0 years of experience but if you have that degree then you probably have better jobs available to you.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 months ago*

The same seems to be true of many other trades. At least in my state no certs are required or even beneficial to become a licensed plumber or electrician.

No certs necessary for locksmithing either.

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[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 4 points 3 months ago (14 children)

Australia. And yes, you have to do on the job training, but that doesn't mean anything. The quality of the work experience is highly variable, so you could spend all of it learning, or all of it buying coffee and sweeping floors.

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[–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (13 children)

That’s just how everything works though?

Not every electrician is going to be working on panels, some just wire plugs instead, people specialize and are payed differently depending on the tasks. Very rarely do you find someone who does the entire trade regulary. They’re not going to be as good or fast as the ones that specialize, so it’s a delicate balance.

Just like every graphic artist may not be being Mona Lisa’s, they could be doing mangas or just heads or something.

Not all doctors are cancer specialists, some are just family doctors, that’s literally how every job and training works everywhere.

Do you think that everything you learn with a degree is used while working? Because they’re taught useless shit too.

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[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 2 points 3 months ago (12 children)

My point is that by the time you have the paper, in either case, there is zero reliable proof that you can do either job. Real world work experience (successfully ran a sparky business, or successfully held a job for a few years) counts far more than the paper does.

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[–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (11 children)

If you can’t handle the trade, a company’s not going to keep you on, and the next company will look at your apprenticeship record and see your lack of training. From there you’ve flunked out.

The system protects itself. So yes if you have a ticket, you can atleast do something in that trade. A degree, IS just a piece of paper. A trade certificate shows you are competent and able to complete tasks. And be able to stick something through to completion (4 years). So yes, that “paper” holds a lot of information. The person while training also builds up a portfolio that they can use to show to future clients or employers of the work they did. A degree doesn’t allow any of this, or provide any information about the person. Other than they could “afford” to sit in a class for a few years.

To finish an apprenticeship you need to hold that job for four years dude… while working on the jobs that entire time…. they’ve met your arbitrary distinction lol.

Your point is, you apparently don’t know how an apprenticeship works.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I agree with you overall - the paper is important and it holds a lot of weight.

There's also a lot of hiring in smaller companies that overlooks certificates. On the job experience is weighted pretty heavily as well in the trades. If you can't handle it, you'll get fired eventually, but companies are happy to employ mediocre trade workers without certs.

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[–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 4 points 3 months ago* (1 child)

Unfortunately not every trade is “regulated” the same either. Technically you can work my trade without a ticket, carpentry. But getting the ticket shows initiative as well as a bunch of other stuff to prospective employers or clients.

Theres also parents pushing their kids through their companies, but the schooling is also still a hurdle to get through. Got to pass the school work and the shop work and final test each year.

Fourth year school you had to make a desk in 32 hours. Every hour over that to 40 costs you points. It’s interesting because it forces you to decide if it’s worth time fixing something for the extra points for a few lost to time. So there’s lots of little hidden information in that trade ticket.

I still have that desk actually.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 1 point 3 months ago

Technically you can work my trade without a ticket, carpentry. But getting the ticket shows initiative as well as a bunch of other stuff to prospective employers or clients.

I've worked in various blue collar/trade jobs and this is true almost all the way across the board. You can get hired on experience, but the certs make you invaluable.

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[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 3 points 3 months ago (7 children)

You are assuming that the company cares about training, and not just a source of cheap labour. Apprentices are paid barely above minimum wage in Aus, and there are kickbacks to the companies to encourage employing them.

If it worked as you described (which is how it should work), I would absolutely agree with you, but the system in Aus happily churns out some absolute duds. Just like the uni system.

Also, for what its worth, many uni degrees include a year of paid internship, but there are similar issues that allow duds to sail through there as well.

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[–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago* (6 children)

Actually where I am, it’s a government enforced sponsorship, so both sides need to do things correctly.

A first year apprentice has to be paid 60% of the lowest paid journeyman, and if you don’t go to school every 24 months they kick you out. Last years get 90%.

Company has to hire you back on after completing the school stint, they need to fill out your blue book before firing you, so the next company can continue your training.

We also know loosely about other countries regulations, since we are certified semi internationally with our red seal program.

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[–] CameronDev@programming.dev 3 points 3 months ago

That sounds like a far better system then, so definitely explains the difference in quality.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 2 points 3 months ago (4 children)

There's so many differences between countries on this that I think you both are arguing ineffectively.

In the US, there are union jobs that require apprenticeships and labor hours. There are also plenty of companies that will hire non-union workers with no certs. There's a lot of variance.

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[–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (3 children)

It’s still the same here, but the schooling and the cert make it so it’s not a piece of paper, and that’s universal. Places without schooling (looking at you USA) are the different ones. You can’t get the cert without schooling and passing a relevant shop test, so having a trade ticket holds a hell of a lot weight.

I would take someone with an EU or Aus cert over the USA, just because of how they do apprenticeships there.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I think most would agree it's better to require a certain amount of schooling for any trade.

The user you're arguing with is from Australia though.

There's a large variance in requirements depending on the country you're working in.

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[–] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 1 point 3 months ago* (1 child)

Nothing they’ve stated doesn’t also happen here, it’s why I asked where they were. If they were located in the US, they would partly have a point.

But Australias system is pretty good.

You kinda need to know how international certification works when you’re hiring and subcontracting with trades everyday. And they have certs from all over.

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[–] velma@sh.itjust.works 0 points 3 months ago

You kinda need to know how international certification works when you’re hiring and subcontracting with trades everyday. And they have certs from all over.

I wasn't arguing with you, I was pointing out there's different standards. I'm very aware of how certification works in the trades.