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Southern Baptists vote to advance a formal ban on churches with women pastors (apnews.com)
submitted 4 months ago by to c/news@lemmy.world
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[–] 8 points 4 months ago (7 children)

That’s some very wild and original claims, lol.

only if your level of understanding comes from Sunday school classes that don't actually go into anything uncomfortable. If you read the scholarship... it's not that uncommon.

First off, recognize that Jesus wasn't "christian", he was an aramaic jew. You can read about what (modern) jews say here, for example.

Of particular note is that the messiah is going to gather the exiles, restore mosiac law, bring reward to the righteous, restore the line of david (because they're a direct heir to david,) and rebuild jerusalem and the temple there.

that link also has the list of all the passages that are deemed to be messianic prophecy at the bottom. These are the prophecies that the coming messiash is supposed to fulfill. I don't think christian Sunday School teachers (or priests, or pastors, or even the pope himself) is going to admit to you that Jesus did not fulfill any of them, in the context as originally given. Which is why, for example, the authors of mathew go to Isaiah 7:14 and insist there's a virgin there. ('parthenos' originally was just a young woman. it only later came to mean, specifically, a virgin woman. the orgiinal hebrew was "a pregnant young woman" and the only purpose of that was an indication of time for the rest of the prophecy to be fulfilled.)

If you don't want to follow those links (it goes to sefaria, which uses the JPS english translation).... Here are the relevant prophecies in Isaiah, Jerimiah, Ezekiel 38:18, Hosea 3, Micah 4, Zephaniah 3, Zechariah 14, Daniel 10.

Jeremiah 30:18 pretty much sums up what I'm saying here:

Therefore all who devour you shall be devoured,
and all your foes, every one of them, shall go into captivity;
those who plunder you shall be plundered,
and all who prey on you I will make a prey.

it's in the middle of a prophecy about restoring Israel from exile, so definitely read the full context there.

Or, there's promises of protection as found in Ezekiel 38:17-23:

^17^Thus says the Lord God: Are you he of whom I spoke in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel, who in those days prophesied for years that I would bring you against them? ^18^On that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel, says the Lord God, my wrath shall be aroused. ^19^For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare: On that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; ^20^the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and the animals of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground and all humans who are on the face of the earth shall quake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground. ^21^I will summon the sword against Gog[e] in all my mountains, says the Lord God; the swords of all will be against their comrades. ^22^With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him, and I will pour down torrential rains and hailstones, fire and sulfur upon him and his troops and the many peoples who are with him. ^23^So I will display my greatness and my holiness and make myself known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.

verse 18 is considered the messianic prophecy, but I've included the others fro more context. immediately prior, god is saying that he's going to CAUSE Gog to invade. he's saying he'll put hook sin their mouth and drag them to war (verse 4,) that he'll put evil thoughts into their minds (verse 10,)

or there's Micah 4:11-13

^11^Now many nations
are assembled against you,
saying, “Let her be profaned,
and let our eyes gaze upon Zion.”
^12^But they do not know
the thoughts of the Lord;
they do not understand his plan,
that he has gathered them as sheaves to the threshing floor.
^13^Arise and thresh,
O daughter Zion,
for I will make your horn iron
and your hoofs bronze;
you shall beat in pieces many peoples
and shall devote their gain to the Lord,
their wealth to the Lord of the whole earth.

Or there's Zecharia 14:9

And the Lord will become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

that's a military campaign, yo. I would call that global domination. Though they only knew about a relatively small corner of the world. it goes on in 12-19

^12^This shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples who wage war against Jerusalem: their flesh shall rot while they are still on their feet, their eyes shall rot in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths. ^13^On that day a great panic from the Lord shall fall on them, so that each will seize the hand of a neighbor, and the hand of the one will be raised against the hand of the other; ^14^even Judah will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be collected: gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. ^15^And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the donkeys, and whatever animals may be in those camps.

?^16^Then all who survive of the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Festival of Booths. ^17^If any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them. ^18^And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, there will be no rain for them; there will be the plague that the Lord inflicts on the nations that do not go up to keep the Festival of Booths. ^19^Such shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to keep the Festival of Booths.

This is what Jesus was claiming here was here to do when he claimed to be messiah (John 4:25-26,, Mathew 16:15-17, 26:63-64)

Christians love to turn it into something else entirely, but that's a straight up lie. In Mat 5:17-20, these messianic prophecies are what Jesus is "fulfilling" (as well as the broader covenant with Moses and abraham.)

and while the authors of mathew and luke are wrong every time they say Jesus fulfilled some messianic prophecy- half aren't even prophecies- the reason they went to all that effort showing what prophecies Jesus fulfilled was to demonstrate that jesus was the messiah. Like the story of Jesus riding on a donkey to fulfill Zechariah 9:9, but jesus was never a king in jerulsalem and just riding a donkey isn't fulfillment of that.

As for the eternal torture... C'mon. Jesus practically got off on all that torture.

f you want to be all grumpy at a teligion, speak out against those that weaponise religions, because that’s actually what’s happening here and has happened all the time through human history. You don’t need to make stuff up and try to link a religion to facism; one that was all about showing kindness and forgiveness to the fucking Romans, no less—who coincidentally did what with religions?

whose the one making shit up?

one that was all about showing kindness and forgiveness to the fucking Romans

I imagine Hitler said some nice things from time to time. he was still an awful fucking human. Most people are just people. No one is all-evil or all-good. So what's your point? that the bible contradicts itself? this is known.

What I do know is that the words of Jesus in the NT contain some absolutely horrific shit and absolutely would- and should- be equated as "fascism" in modern parlance. I mean, in the words of jesus himself, as recorded in the NT: "Don't be scared of the guy who can kill you... be scared of ME as I claim to be the guy who can kill you AND TORTURE YOU FOR FUCKING ETERNITY!"

Yeah. that totally sounds like a pacifist.

Which brings us back to reading the bible, no? Like. Seriously. there's parts that are like "Don't be an ass", there's parts that are trying to not be assholish, but would be so today, and then there's parts that are total assholery. I'm not ignoring the parts that are "don't be an ass" but I'm also not ignoring the assholery, or the parts where they try to not be assholes but we'd say they are. (like those bits about not beating your slaves to death. yeah. Like. it's okay to beat your slaves as long as they don't die that day.)

Jesus was absolutely teaching the Torah and the written law of moses, as stated in mat 5:17-20. not that christians seem to understand that. the implication here is that Jesus was totally on board with all the horrific shit in the "old" testament. including slavery, and it being permissible to beat your slaves to an inch of their lives, so long as they don't day in a day or two.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (6 children)

    Most of what you're posting isn't fact-checking, it's traditional interpretation vs another, on a position of truth, just like a Sunday school teacher acts themselves.

    You've done little much more than kind of point out some distinctions of why the Christian ideology came to exist while neglecting the foundational ones. Yes, obviously there's contention of Christ meeting messianic criteria which is literally the whole fucking thing of Abrahamic religions being a plural. But then at the same time you keep referencing the Bible but no other literature whether Judaic, Islamic, or even Mesopotamian/Babylonian laws that suspiciously made their way over amongst other things.

    Despite this, you seem to have picked full affirmation based on what the Torah asserts, despite being one of the main splits of Christianity. Completely glossing over how the entire function of Christian law in the NT is deeply covered by Paul—kind of the main guy that defined it all in detail, kicking off the ideology that would be established nearly three centuries later... Through the power of junk mail to different Mediterranean cities and societies, of all methods. Seriously, I don't know how modern Thessaloniki somehow managed to be cooler than other Greek cities despite being an epicentre.

    And then, out of no where, fast-forward to fascism? lol

    I don't think a 1st century apocalyptic preacher or even a 120-year old Nile baby is what Benito had in mind when establishing a political ideology of state rule over all other entities, including religions.

    You've certainly got a position and I do not think it's scholarly nor without personal religious influence.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    You don’t get to claim that a book is the word of god with binding commandments and then say that the book is incomplete and subject to interpretation.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Despite this, you seem to have picked full affirmation based on what the Torah asserts, despite being one of the main splits of Christianity. Completely glossing over how the entire function of Christian law in the NT is deeply covered by Paul—kind of the main guy that defined it all in detail, kicking off the ideology that would be established nearly three centuries later… Through the power of junk mail to different Mediterranean cities and societies, of all methods. Seriously, I don’t know how modern Thessaloniki somehow managed to be cooler than other Greek cities despite being an epicentre.

    "BUT BUT PAUL SAID!"

    Paul disagrees with Jesus. so if you follow Jesus, then Paul is a heretic. Mathew 5:17-20 makes that exceptionally clear- the law of moses as written is to be in force until the earth itself passes away.

    I've not mentioned Paul because he's fucking irrelevant to what JESUS says. But of course you want to dodge to that. Not that it particularly makes things better. Paul was the kind of ass who sent a ran-away slave back to his owner so that the owner could give him back to Paul as a servant. Paul doesn't overturn slavery either- and indeed tells slaves to obey their masters. He tells women to obey their husbands and be silent in church. None of this is particularly new or revalatory.

    "But they were disciples!"

    All a disciple was, is a follower. The women of influence in the bible were largely (rich) people with houses that the early church met at. and while bringing religious affairs into homes like that did give women more access and influence, "WOMEN BE SILENT" is Paul's instruciton. Details suck, amirite?

    I don’t think a 1st century apocalyptic preacher or even a 120-year old Nile baby is what Benito had in mind when establishing a political ideology of state rule over all other entities, including religions.

    the definition of fascism:

    1: a populist political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual, that is associated with a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, and that is characterized by severe economic and social regimentation and by forcible suppression of opposition

    2: a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

    Mussolini wasn't the first authoritarian autocrat to exist. Jesus himself says that:

    1. he is god.
    2. all authority comes from god (him)
    3. he is the messiah - who:
      3.2) Is a king of the line of david.
      3.3) that would defeat all of Israel's enemies
      3.4) and institute mosiac law on a global scale
      3..5) through military force.
    4. that he would personally judge everyone and throw everyone who didn't bow down and follow him into hell.

    Yeah. Seems pretty fascist to me. Most societies back then were pretty fascist and that sometimes gets glossed over. Particularly when people today want to justify following some dude's iron age fundamentalist yearnings for bronze age legal codes.... details, amirite?

    You’ve done little much more than kind of point out some distinctions of why the Christian ideology came to exist while neglecting the foundational ones. Yes, obviously there’s contention of Christ meeting messianic criteria which is literally the whole fucking thing of Abrahamic religions being a plural. But then at the same time you keep referencing the Bible but no other literature whether Judaic, Islamic, or even Mesopotamian/Babylonian laws that suspiciously made their way over amongst other things.

    I'm curious as to why I should consider the teachings of Mohamed when talking about the teachings of Jesus?

    Explain that to me. Should I also go to the Buddha, as well? Hell. why don't we go to the shamanism found in central America? or maybe the Sentinel Islanders, who I'm sure have some thoughts...

    Nice distraction. As for not including judaic literature... I have been indirectly this entire time. If you don't like the NSRVUE translation of that literature, would you prefer the JPS? you can find it at Sefaria.org. Given that the topic is Christianity, though, I'd just as soon not put in that work. You're welcome to cite that if you think you'll find something relevant.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 child)

    You're definitely a former Christian. Maybe Jewish Either way you were a suburban warrior and that "training" disallows you from being subjective.

    Or I'm completely wrong and you just somehow naturally landed in your pile of bullshit lol.

    I encourage more reading.

    Your concept of Fascism is almost insulting to the concept of rationales. You can link whatever Googled output you want, but it won't change the fact that the guy literally invented it, wrote books and essays about it, and absolutely none of it has anything to do with what you're talking about. It is as fallacious as cclaiming the ocean is the sky because it too is blue.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago

    I’m incablemof being subjective?

    What does that even mean?

    Did you mean “objective”?- ie, that I can’t look at things without my personal bias?

    Cuz I’d agree with that I can’t be objective- and yes, I’m considering it all from my personal subjective understanding.

    As for “Mussolini invented fascism” … that’s a bit naive. Actually, that’s very naive. Yeah he named what we fascism today. He started the first National Fascist Party in Italy, too.

    his fascism was a blend of nationalism, populism and extreme authoritarianism.

    Now let’s consider that blend in the context of Jesus.

    Claiming to be the messiah- a king of the line of David, who would defeat military enemies of Israel and liberate the oppressed Israelites and institute the theocratic monarchy, and lead that theocratic monarchy to control the entire world- means he’s very fucking nationalist.

    He claims all authority comes from god. And that be is god, and that disobedience leads to death and eternal torture… he’s extremely fucking authoritarian.

    His views of liberating the oppressed and uplifting the destitute; against the uncaring, immoral elite (Pharisees) who led the Jewish people away from the Law, and caused god to be angry with them and who allowed the Roman’s to oppress them in punishment.

    So yeah. The term applies, even if it’s uncomfortable to admit, even if it’s anachronistic, does that change that the two have very similar commonalities?

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