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[–] 152 points 5 months ago (74 children)

The post makes the manager seem like a fool, when the real answer is actually "yes" and this manager is actually ahead of the curve. Not by training an LLM from scratch, of course, but instead building an inference server and locally hosting an open-weight LLM. There are several to choose from that can nearly match Claude's capabilities.

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  • [–] 37 points 5 months ago (8 children)

    Honestly IDK why companies especially medium-big don’t do this. They could plug in RAG with internal/confidential data and have better results and security. I guess question is what is capital plus maintenance cost of running such infra for say 10k+ employees

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  • [–] 24 points 5 months ago

    I think the issue is also that you need some serious hardware to get good inference speed when your devs are working, but then most of the time this hardware will be under utilized.

    That being said you can get good performance from indie inference farms, at a fraction of the cost of the big US labs. I think it's a great compromise and in a few months the open models will be near parity with opus 4.6 which is really all you need for most tasks.

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago* (2 children)

    Probably more expensive than the subsidized costs.

    Of course, but that's exactly the problem. OpenAI and Anthropic are preparing to IPO, so they must now demonstrate profits on inference. The time to take advantage of subsidized compute is in the past, and the subscription and per-token prices that they offer for inference are skyrocketing, overwhelming the budgets of companies that somehow did not see this bait-and-switch pricing coming.

    per vibecoding dev

    No lol. These same hardware requirements would apply to the cloud hosted models as well, so if that's how it worked, you're suggesting that Anthropic, OpenAI, Meta, and Google have purchased ~14 H100 GPUs per user that they serve???

    That would be literally billions of GPUs, while it is estimated that in 2024, Google's AI division owned only 26,000 H100 GPUs and Meta owned the most H100 GPUs of any company at 350,000 units. These GPUs have very high throughput for inference and can serve many users, because that is exactly what they have been designed to do.

    I’m not sure the cloud models use quantization

    they absolutely do, yeah

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

    Even so, your numbers are still a tiny fraction of GPU units compared to concurrent users, and the limit you "imagine" is just that, imagined.

    And you do need to remember that the majority of the compute at these companies is used for model training and not used for inference.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    Because in the feeding frenzy, every company with a product/marketing budget is trying to make the customers pay by the token and companies are doing jack to help "mere mortal" companies get going with this stuff on premise.

    You are right that the technical hurdles are not insane to get this going, but most companies don't know where to begin and there's no huge marketing blitz telling the business leaders this is realistically on the table and here's the company you can call to make it happen for you.

    Even if you overcame that and proposed really how to get going, you will still probably hit the aversion to capex that has persisted since Amazon told the industry that capex is toxic and you really want all your money to be spent on opex. Big companies like Amazon will take on that scary CapEx for you and you're expenses will be nice and just OpEx. Coincidentally, the companies that spend the most on CapEx manage to pull in more revenue and profit than you will ever dream to, but still, remember CapEx is toxic.

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  • [–] 78 points 5 months ago (9 children)

    suspiciously sounds like an answer you would get from Claude

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  • [–] 216 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (8 children)

    It's not an answer you'd get from Claude — it's real, organic content:

    • 👶written by a genuine human
    • 💡delivering original ideas and language
    • 🚀going above and beyond to answer
    • ✨synergizing cross-platform initiatives

    (🤪 this is a joke)

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  • [–] 76 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    ✨synergizing cross-platform initiatives

    This can't possibly be Claude. It's too vapid and meaningless to be anything but an MBA.

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  • [–] 56 points 5 months ago* (1 child)

    You’re absolutely right! Such intricate collection of words placed in such exact order cannot possibly be generated by an LLM such as me, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us, I mean such as us

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  • [–] 9 points 5 months ago

    Found samsung's voice to text user.

    (Phones give one a google or samsung choice. and samsung is worthless, it tends to endlessly repeat a phrase, like above, but sometimes for much longer, like holding the backspace for a couple of minutes one time.)

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  • [–] 23 points 5 months ago (3 children)
  • [–] 14 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    It's got everything. Em dash. It's not X, it's Y. Emoji bullet points.

    Perfect.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago

    Nothing screams LLMs like using emojis instead of bullet points. I can't figure out how LLMs got that idea though. I never saw that in human writing before people started using ChapGPT for every little goddamn thing.

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  • [–] 16 points 5 months ago (6 children)

    I'm not a developer and I don't know a thing about the capabilities of LLMs so this may explain that, but I'm quite surprised that open weight LLMs could actually match Claude.

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  • [–] 26 points 5 months ago (3 children)

    Yes, the big proprietary cloud models have an edge, but it is narrow and the open-weight models are constantly closing the gap. There is no moat when it comes to AI models and no company has yet discovered some secret special sauce to improve their model significantly over others.

    Running the latest and greatest open-weight GLM, Kimi, or Qwen model is basically equivalent to running the previous latest and greatest version of Claude. So if you were happy with Claude then, you'll basically be happy with an open-weight model now.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

    Well it's the speed and processing power, i dont believe you can get anywhere close to cloud claude performance on any standard desktop

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago*

    Mostly down to frameworks (the bits around the LLM like RAG, memory, prompts, agents etc.) now. The ability to just throw more tokens at the problem is also super important. And you can because you're just paying for electricity (and CapEx for the hardware), not tokens from companies that are doing pre-IPO monetization (i.e. tokens gonna go up, way up). They've been losing money hand over fist to gain market share and pump the idea, that was never going to last.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago (7 children)

    Pretty sure these AI companies are running at a cost, and due to AI Scaling Laws you hit the accuracy limit a lot sooner with a smaller model so it would probably be both worse and more expensive.

    I could see how you might think speedrunning bankruptcy is similar to being "ahead of the curve" in this economy, though.

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (5 children)

    No that's not how this works. Inference is cheap and efficient. AI companies are bankrupting themselves with training costs that they need to recoup back by selling inference. Open-weight models have already been trained.

    Also, going big in terms of model size shows diminishing marginal returns on accuracy, not efficiency of scale. Smaller models are way more efficient and consistently catch up to the largest models, which is why today's SOTA 27 billion parameter model competes with yesterday's SOTA 500+ billion parameter model.

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (1 child)

    AI companies are bankrupting themselves with training costs that they need to recoup back by selling inference.

    I think they hit a wall in actual returns on performance with pretraining, years ago. Then they started scaling up on post-training/reinforcement learning to continue improvement, but that might be hitting a plateau as well. More recently it looks like they're relying more heavily on scaling up on inference, which is a significant problem for their long term business models.

    If they're not able to cheaply deliver inference (and charge at a premium), how will they be able to sustain their businesses?

    It seems that the most recent, largest models are using a lot more tokens to accomplish the same tasks, so even as token cost drops the actual cost of using the latest models seems to be going up with time (even as performance improves).

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  • [–] 7 points 5 months ago

    There's a big difference between training a model, running a model, and running a model at scale.

    A small, self hosted setup will have lower accuracy and queries per second, and it will have a cost, but the cost will be no more than playing a videogame. You'll still have something surprisingly accurate and responsive for some tasks, like being a wiki interface or something.

    Remember that some of these models can run on a standard smartphone, and all the hoopla when people found that chrome was downloading models onto people's devices.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (30 children)

    What kind of hardware would be needed to run such a beast?

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  • [–] 5 points 5 months ago (29 children)

    a 128GB framework desktop could do that job. it's increased a bit in price since i last looked at it but €4500 isn't that much for a company.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago (28 children)

    Maybe to serve an aggressively quantized model to one very patient user.

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  • [–] 4 points 5 months ago (27 children)

    i'm running moderately quantized models on 24GB VRAM and getting like 30-40 tokens a second. add a zero to the price and it's still not a lot for a company.

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  • [–] 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (25 children)

    Sure, but you're running a very small model compared to what we are talking about.

    GLM-5.1 is over 200GB even when quantizied to 1-bit. Kimi K2.6 is even bigger. A framework desktop cannot run either of these. Qwen3.6 is significantly smaller and the model weights could fit, but consider the KV-cache you'd need for all of the company's users, and the throughput required to serve them all.

    You're right that it is within reach for a company but framework desktop makes zero sense for this

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago (24 children)

    isn't qwen like 40-50GB? that could work i think. performance is okay even quantised down to 10.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (5 children)

    It's 3 years if you're trying to be competitive on frontier models and generally capex is preferred to opex because opex never ends

    I don't think anyone's building a cluster for their business right now, but one single rack after Claude gets rid of their subscription options? Might be a good deal.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (4 children)

    Capex never ends either if it's hardware. Also you need opex to run it

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago (3 children)

    400k on a DGX node starts seeming like a great deal when your employees each start using a few hundred dollars worth of Claude tokens every month. That one node can handle a lot of users depending on the model used.

    It's an expense once every maybe 5 or 6 years in reality and you don't need to hire new people, you just give your existing sysadmins some extra work. They'll complain, but they'll still do it.

    Of course the sensible alternative is to use a decent model off openrouter for peanuts but then you're sending all your sensitive business secrets to China which is even worse than sharing them with a US AI company. And people WILL be sharing secrets lol

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  • [–] 2 points 5 months ago

    I know for a fact that Dell is coming out with a server appliance to do this. I mean you can make one yourself right now, but once the OEM's start pumping them out it's going to be interesting

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