▲ 16 ▼ Let me know if I missed anything (lemmy.ml) submitted 6 months ago by Dragon@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml 13 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (8 children) [removed by mod] permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] -2 points 6 months ago (7 children) you’re not even factoring in the taean system at the factory level. There is only so much room on the canvas, but Chongsanri and Taean seem to be based on similar principles as the rest of the government. permanently negative, endlessly “skeptical” stance I don't mean to be only negative. There are great things about places like the USSR, China, Cuba, and probably North Korea too. However, I think that is due to the benefits of Platonic Aristocracy, not Socialism. It reeks of chauvanism You keep saying that I can't expect non-western countries to have "western" democracy. It sounds like you're saying only white people can have democracy. While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren't that democratic. I would look to more radical forms, like DAANES, and urge the continued research into possible undiscovered strategies. and “left” anti-communism. I didn't realize Lemmy was so anti-left. parties should be able to expel corrupt or poorly-performing members. You can’t have your cake and eat it here too, either parties have to be open and thus vulnerable to the corruption you keep hinting that they may have, or they need mechanisms for preventing such problems and dealing with them as they arise. Again, “left” anti-communism. This is why you kept getting quoted Gramsci’s teardown of Bordiga I'd never read Bordiga's writings before, but I find his critique insightful: The same process will take place in Italy as in other capitalist countries. Against the advance of the working class, a coalition of all the reactionary elements will form, from the fascists to the Popular Party and the socialists: actually, the socialists will become the vanguard of the anti-proletarian reaction because they know best the weaknesses of the working class. That is exactly what happened. Mussolini himself was originally a socialist, and members of the Popular Party joined his government. If there were a bunch of anti-slavery memes, would having a pro-slavery meme be justified in the name of “balance?” The pro-DPRK memes aren't anti-slavery, they are pro-slavery. your critique is “sterile and negative,” it offers no solutions and only spreads doubt and division. Challenge accepted, I will try to make a meme that offers solutions, and I expect no negativity in response, as that isn't comradely. Read...what pro-socialist groups are saying. Pro-socialist, or pro-DPRK? If a group is critical of the DPRK do you consider it to be not socialist? The problem here is that you are assuming the opposite, that a socialist state is anti-democratic and is oppressing its citizens for no reason. Making a democratic state is hard. All the (limited, biased) evidence points toward an oppressive state in North Korea. Forgive me if I suspect there might be some grain of truth in it. I understand what control is, I have yet to see you make a compelling argument for why we should abandon the Marxist understanding of class. You kept trying to invent the idea of an administrator class, but experience shows that the Marxist understanding of class is correct, that the state is representative of the ruling class in society, and not outside of that. It is such a great tragedy that Marx never finished "The State". So many Marxists' understanding of political power is skin-deep. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago (5 children) You keep saying that I can’t expect non-western countries to have “western” democracy. It sounds like you’re saying only white people can have democracy. You have to be a troll. Western democracy is democracy in the loosest sense to keep acting like it's the only valid form of democracy is ridiculous. I hope you eventually grow up. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 6 months ago (4 children) Accusing me of being a troll while excluding the next sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (3 children) While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. This one? "Oh other forms of democracy exist but they're not real democracy". permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] -2 points 6 months ago (2 children) It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago Is it? It seems like the exact read anyone would have of what you've said. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago It's the negative space outlined by everything else you're saying permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] -2 points 6 months ago (7 children) you’re not even factoring in the taean system at the factory level. There is only so much room on the canvas, but Chongsanri and Taean seem to be based on similar principles as the rest of the government. permanently negative, endlessly “skeptical” stance I don't mean to be only negative. There are great things about places like the USSR, China, Cuba, and probably North Korea too. However, I think that is due to the benefits of Platonic Aristocracy, not Socialism. It reeks of chauvanism You keep saying that I can't expect non-western countries to have "western" democracy. It sounds like you're saying only white people can have democracy. While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren't that democratic. I would look to more radical forms, like DAANES, and urge the continued research into possible undiscovered strategies. and “left” anti-communism. I didn't realize Lemmy was so anti-left. parties should be able to expel corrupt or poorly-performing members. You can’t have your cake and eat it here too, either parties have to be open and thus vulnerable to the corruption you keep hinting that they may have, or they need mechanisms for preventing such problems and dealing with them as they arise. Again, “left” anti-communism. This is why you kept getting quoted Gramsci’s teardown of Bordiga I'd never read Bordiga's writings before, but I find his critique insightful: The same process will take place in Italy as in other capitalist countries. Against the advance of the working class, a coalition of all the reactionary elements will form, from the fascists to the Popular Party and the socialists: actually, the socialists will become the vanguard of the anti-proletarian reaction because they know best the weaknesses of the working class. That is exactly what happened. Mussolini himself was originally a socialist, and members of the Popular Party joined his government. If there were a bunch of anti-slavery memes, would having a pro-slavery meme be justified in the name of “balance?” The pro-DPRK memes aren't anti-slavery, they are pro-slavery. your critique is “sterile and negative,” it offers no solutions and only spreads doubt and division. Challenge accepted, I will try to make a meme that offers solutions, and I expect no negativity in response, as that isn't comradely. Read...what pro-socialist groups are saying. Pro-socialist, or pro-DPRK? If a group is critical of the DPRK do you consider it to be not socialist? The problem here is that you are assuming the opposite, that a socialist state is anti-democratic and is oppressing its citizens for no reason. Making a democratic state is hard. All the (limited, biased) evidence points toward an oppressive state in North Korea. Forgive me if I suspect there might be some grain of truth in it. I understand what control is, I have yet to see you make a compelling argument for why we should abandon the Marxist understanding of class. You kept trying to invent the idea of an administrator class, but experience shows that the Marxist understanding of class is correct, that the state is representative of the ruling class in society, and not outside of that. It is such a great tragedy that Marx never finished "The State". So many Marxists' understanding of political power is skin-deep. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 7 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago (5 children) You keep saying that I can’t expect non-western countries to have “western” democracy. It sounds like you’re saying only white people can have democracy. You have to be a troll. Western democracy is democracy in the loosest sense to keep acting like it's the only valid form of democracy is ridiculous. I hope you eventually grow up. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 6 months ago (4 children) Accusing me of being a troll while excluding the next sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (3 children) While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. This one? "Oh other forms of democracy exist but they're not real democracy". permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] -2 points 6 months ago (2 children) It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago Is it? It seems like the exact read anyone would have of what you've said. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago It's the negative space outlined by everything else you're saying permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (1 reply)
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago (5 children) You keep saying that I can’t expect non-western countries to have “western” democracy. It sounds like you’re saying only white people can have democracy. You have to be a troll. Western democracy is democracy in the loosest sense to keep acting like it's the only valid form of democracy is ridiculous. I hope you eventually grow up. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 5 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 6 months ago (4 children) Accusing me of being a troll while excluding the next sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (3 children) While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. This one? "Oh other forms of democracy exist but they're not real democracy". permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] -2 points 6 months ago (2 children) It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago Is it? It seems like the exact read anyone would have of what you've said. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago It's the negative space outlined by everything else you're saying permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] 0 points 6 months ago (4 children) Accusing me of being a troll while excluding the next sentence. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (3 children) While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. This one? "Oh other forms of democracy exist but they're not real democracy". permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] -2 points 6 months ago (2 children) It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago Is it? It seems like the exact read anyone would have of what you've said. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago It's the negative space outlined by everything else you're saying permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 4 points 6 months ago (3 children) While there are plenty of non-western liberal democracies, I agree with the criticism that they aren’t that democratic. This one? "Oh other forms of democracy exist but they're not real democracy". permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 3 child comments replies: [–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] -2 points 6 months ago (2 children) It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago Is it? It seems like the exact read anyone would have of what you've said. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago It's the negative space outlined by everything else you're saying permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Dragon@lemmy.ml [S] -2 points 6 months ago (2 children) It is trollish to interpret that as me claiming the only valid for of democracy is western democracy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago Is it? It seems like the exact read anyone would have of what you've said. permalink fedilink source parent [–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago It's the negative space outlined by everything else you're saying permalink fedilink source parent
[–] QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 months ago Is it? It seems like the exact read anyone would have of what you've said. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 months ago It's the negative space outlined by everything else you're saying permalink fedilink source parent