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[–] 10 points 7 months ago* (61 children)

I didn't even know I was circumcised at birth until like halfway through highschool and I didn't really care after finding out. And having now seen penises that are uncircumcised, I'm kinda glad I was. From my perspective, it didn't hurt and I didn't even know until 17ish years later. Everything works perfectly normally.

All of that was a buildup to a genuine question of why do you feel so upset by it? I don't mean to be argumentative or dismissive, just want to see the point of view from someone else

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  • [–] 65 points 7 months ago* (44 children)

    we all have our own feelings about it. I'm not trying to say that the way you feel about your own circumcision is right or wrong, or how any man who decides - on their own, as an informed adult - is right or wrong to do so.

    but I would vehemently argue that it is an adult man's decision to make, not a parent's decision to make for their infant son-- unless some medical condition makes it necessary to do so at that time (which are quite rare). and, yes, I understand that there are religious considerations, but, as an atheist, I'm not so sympathetic to that, either, as I classify all genital mutilation in the same category, regardless of age or gender: it is a decision to be made by the subject of the procedure, and only when they are a consenting, informed adult.

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  • [–] 39 points 7 months ago

    Circumcision is and should only be a medically necessary procedure. I've never heard anyone say medically necessary circumcision is mutilation, but I'm from Europe where most men aren't circumcised, so there's that. Whoever says it's mutilation when it's medically justified is ignorant.

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  • [+] 20 points 7 months ago* (18 children)
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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    That is non-figuratively impossible. You can't feel anything with nerve endings that have been removed.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    That, uhh, sounds nice and all, but I don't believe it. This doesn't even make sense on the face of it: Why does removing one body part lead to phantom pain signals, but removing another body part lead to improved sensation? Do people who lose fingers develop better sensation in their remaining fingers to compensate? Wouldn't it stand to reason then that some men would get phantom foreskin pain?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    There's plenty of signals coming from the nerve bundles in the area. Phantom pain seems to need larger sets of nerve bundles removed/unstimulated. Is s not fully understood, but that seems to be how it works. People who lose fingers often do get increased sensitivity on other fingers and they can also get phantom pain.

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  • [–] 2 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Again, I have to express doubt. I understand brain plasticity, and why some people can read Braille, while I cannot. (I haven't put in the work.) Sensory receptors are specific to certain functions, though, and one type cannot assume the function of another if it's not present. Nobody can read Braille on their lower back, because it lacks fine-touch receptors.

    I did read a study which made a good point about perceived intensity of sensation not correlating with number of sensory receptors. I can understand why circumcision may not affect many men. However, I stand by my statement that you cannot perceive sensation from receptors that are gone. WRT the original comment, there are some men who do experience lowered or absent sexual sensation due to circumcision. Perhaps their brains are attuned to those receptors that are gone. Also, later in life sensory perception of all kinds naturally begins to fade, and the number of missing receptors become more evident.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    I think the mechanism in question is more on the brain side. Where certain sets of nerves are processed, if some are missing that area of brain simply adjusts the input strength of others. I suspect adult amputation is different from amputation of a newborn since the brain elasticity is so different. But all we can do it make educated guesses anyway since we can't do controlled experiments. Studies involving watching brain activity can only go so far to really reflect experience. So we can't know. I'm just pointing out that the common sense approach you indicated isn't matched by some clear data. So it's not cut and dry. It could even be that men circumcised at birth experience more sexual pleasure.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    So a human growing up with a cut foreskin simply adapts and the brain perceives more sensitivity from the other nerves to produce the same levels of sensation.

    That is just false. You sound like someone who isn't circumcised.

    Without the foreskin intact, the glans is subject to friction throughout the day as it's in contact with the inside of one's clothes. This reduces sensitivity over time and builds thicker, drier, and rougher layers of skin. Whereas the glans of an uncircumcised penis is basically a mucus membrane, on a circumcised penis it's more like the skin of a knuckle, but thicker.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Nerve endings in the foreskin are not that sensitive to sexual stimuli, I would consider that as much loss of sensitivity as amputating a leg is loss of sensitivity.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Even the glans loses sensitivity. On an uncircumcised penis, that whole area is basically a mucus membrane. On a circumcised penis, it becomes dry an rougher, like the skin on your knuckle. It absolutely does reduce sensitivity.

    Also,

    I would consider that as much loss of sensitivity as amputating a leg is loss of sensitivity.

    You wouldn't say doctors should amputate babies' legs to reduce risk of gangrene, would you? How is that even an argument? "Oh, those nerve endings don't matter cause it's just like losing a leg, nbd." What the fuck?

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago

    This is true. I was circumcized as an infant, and when I started having sex around 19, I wondered why it didn't feel as good as it was supposed to. I thought I was doing something wrong.

    So I tried harder and harder, inexperienced as I was, and didn't learn how to make sweet, gentle love until much later. Even then, it was more for my partner's pleasure, because my dick just isn't that sensitive.

    It caused a lot of problems in my relationships early on. Frustration and feelings of inadequacy on both sides, because I was "hard to satisfy" literally unable to feel satisfactory pleasure...

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  • [–] 14 points 7 months ago* (2 children)

    Those that get it done for medical reasons being called mutilation would be offensive.

    Right, because they weren't mutilated, they had to have a procedure done for a medical reason.

    Any non-medically necessary surgery to a child's genitals is mutilation. They have no way to consent, and anything short of a medical necessity is the parent making massive changes to their child's life based on their preferences. To make the point crystal clear:

    • If I have a kid and the arm ends up gangrenous, we would remove it as it would be medically necessary for the child's well-being
    • If I have a kid and think it's cool to have one arm, I would be trying to mutilate my child by removing it for no reason

    How is performing a medically unnecessary surgery on a child's genitals not mutilation? Again, you're changing their body surgically without their consent for no reason aside from ignorant beliefs.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    I dislike the 'mutilated' label being applied and take it as an insult because of the negative connotations despite not personally having any downsides. It is like claiming that everyone who is overweight based on BMI is unhealthy despite many athletes having a high BMI due to having a lot of muscle.

    Plus the person I was responding to said adults who voluntarily chose to get circumcised are mutilated themselves. With that logic ear piercings and voluntarily removing annoying, but not medically probematic moles is mutilation. My point is that you can't just ignore the negative connotations and use a broad brush to describe people while claiming it is technically accurate.

    No, it should not be done to babies without a medical necessity. That doesn't mean calling everyone who has been circumcised mutilated won't come across as insulting.

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  • [–] 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    I am sick and tired of seeing all circumcision lumped together as mutilation

    it's the definition of the word. sure, it carries a lot of negative connotations that may not have affected you the same way, and you may have, personally, appreciated your circumcision, but that doesn't invalidate the feelings of others. this isn't some zero-sum situation where other people being upset about it somehow invalidated your experience.

    Many people can feel different ways about things. That's called society. A key part of civilization is our ability to all live together with many different people feeling different ways about things. In fact, a huge advance in civilization - no shit - is that, several thousand years ago, we stop killing each other over this very issue. REALLY.

    In a much more contemporary context, it's just not necessary. Most recently, as recently as the late 1970s and early 1980s, a now-debunked study pushed the idea that it was, at least "more hygienic" to circumcise males, but that was based on shaky and now-debunked studies. In modern medicine, circumcision is no longer recommended at birth except in rare cases of medical necessity of urinary or other birth defects. Exceptions also exist in some religions, Judaism most prominently, not for medical necessity, but as an alignment with a belief based on ancient mythology, not unlike the genital mutilations some women undergo in Islam — also widely/globally denounced.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (3 children)

    I was circumcized as an infant without my consent, and my mutilated dick wants you to stop downplaying the severity of its fate.

    A piece of me is literally missing, and you want to say I'm not mutilated because that would offend you? Why, do you have uncomfortable feelings about your own situation that you refuse to examine?

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (2 children)

    Me not wanting to be labeled as mutilated doesn't invalidate your identification as mutilated.

    If you consider yourself mutilated, then yes, you are mutilated. I am not mutilated because we see our personal experiences differently.

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago

    Uh, no kidding dude.

    I get a mutilated finger lopped off its a procedure to save my life / improve its quality.

    But cutting off a healthy one because religion / aesthetics is just fucking bananas

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  • [–] 19 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    aww, did that sound good before you posted it?

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  • [–] 12 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    If we were a couple of dudes negging on each other in a bar over whiskey shots, I’d put up with this, because we’d end up hooking up in the end, but online? There’s no goddamn point.

    Later

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  • [–] 9 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    It's true. Chatting about circumcision in a bar most often ends in showing each other your dicks.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    No, I don't think so. Not me and my friends. And not where we drink.

    I mean, I have no direct experimental evidence for that assertion because I don't think I've ever discussed circumcision in a bar, but I'm really very confident that none of my drinking pals are ever going to whip out their todger at the pub. And I'm not going to either. Nope.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Really just need to give it a try to know. At the bar would be an atypical place to do the whipping out I agree, but invite the cutest one over afterwards and see where it goes!

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    Username checks out.

    Thank you for the suggestion, but I'm sure that my wife and two daughters would be surprised that James came inside the house after pub night, and also that any subsequent trouser truncheon touting would have extreme consequences for us all.

    I wrote a longer answer which I think I was wise to delete.

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  • [–] 22 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (7 children)

    So the problem is a lot of Americans/Catholics think a circumcision is something responsible adults do to their children to help them avoid potential health problems. They also erroneously believe the foreskin serves no purpose and is one of those we evolved with it, but it is useless kind of things.

    They dont know the truth that it actually has a large number of nerve endings and its removal was originally pushed for to reduce the pleasure boys felt from masturbation, in the hope they would not masturbate. Because sex should only be for reproduction according to those who originally pushed for circumcision... It is like what is done to some women in muslim communities. Difference being woman have even more nerve endings in the clitoris and men can still experience some pleasure without the foreskin, but much less. This is why circumcision is often considered mutilation, except for those rare medical exceptions. Parents are unknowingly removing their childs right to sexual pleasure under the guise it is for their health.

    It really needs to end as simple hygiene is all that is needed for the health reasons.

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  • [–] 10 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    As a circumcised man, who was once a teenage boy, I’m surprised that generation after generation of men who’d also been circumcised teenage boys never acknowledged “ya know, this doesn’t do a goddamn thing to keep’em from beatin’ their dicks”. But science and logic has never been religion’s strong suit.

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  • [–] 8 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Well, we don't do it the way Dr. Kellogg first subscribed it. You're supposed to do it as a punishment the first time you catch them in the act. It probably only stops them while they heal, but it will stop them.

    You probably don't want to know what he subscribed for girls in the same situation.

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  • [–] 24 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

    There are several possible reasons why other men might be upset, although your own equipment still works perfectly normally:

    • Just like women's sexual responses differ, men's sexual responses may differ, as well. I've learned from a friend, who's had many male partners, that some men get intense pleasure from manipulation of their foreskin. Some can even reach orgasm that way. I've learned from several (intact) men on Reddit and Lemmy that their primary source of sexual sensation is their foreskin, rather than their glans. Losing a major source of pleasure could be upsetting.

    • This same friend also reports that, in his experience, intact men have better awareness of their own state of arousal, and better control of it. In brief, they can "last longer." This is anecdotal, of course, but I seem to recall reading some research to back that up. That's part of the reason why he's upset by his being circumcised.

    • "Circumcision" is not just one thing. It ranges from the traditional bris (a small snip at the tip of the penis, so that the tip of the glans just peeks out) to amputation of the entire mobile skin system of the penis (about 15 sq. in. of adult tissue gone). I would imagine that men who have drum-tight skin on their penises, and must use lube to facilitate penetration or masturbation, might not like it, whereas a man whose glans was still covered when his penis was flaccid might not notice much difference.

    • The dorsal nerve of the penis can be severed during the procedure, removing sensation from the glans almost entirely, leading to erectile and performance issues, as well as greatly reduced enjoyment of sex.

    • The healing of the circumcision wound can go not-quite-perfectly, leading to adhesions, assymetry, tight frenulums, phantom pain, and scarring. Journalist Gary Shteyngart wrote an essay about the odyssey of pain that he was thrown into when a skin bridge (an adhesion) on his penis became infected. Worse, I recall a letter published in Savage Love from a man whose circumcision scar was so thick and inelastic that it caused the end of his penis to go ischemic, then necrotic, and then fall off when he was an infant. He's left with a stub of a penis, and a pretty good reason to be upset about circumcision, I'd say.

    ETA: I did not think of this, but @theleadensea@sh.itjust.works pointed out that removal of the foreskin complicates bottom surgery for trans women, I would guess because it gives the surgeon less tissue to work with.

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  • I mean, you lost a significant amount of your sensory nerves in your penis, but you do you.

    Anyway, I fucking didn't do it to my kids because it is unconscionable to mutilate a child's (possibly) completely functional penis for aesthetic reasons.

    BTW, You are bragging that you happened to be lucky. Many are not.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Obviously most circumsised people have no issues with their dicks. And a lot probably sees it as a positive. I have heard a people claim that they look better.

    Doing plastic surgery on babies is still a bit weird to me.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago*

    In my country, most men I know of feel satisfied with the form of their tools, just there is more emphasis on having the length and being potent on bed. Likewise, local anti-circumcision activists are also a very small minority.

    But here in this largely Western-progressive dominated fora where individual rights and personal consent are paramount, male circumcision is met with very strong if not violent negative reaction.

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