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Viktor Orbán concedes defeat as Hungary's Tisza Party heads for election win (www.nbcnews.com)
submitted 7 months ago by to c/world@lemmy.world
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[–] 150 points 7 months ago (36 children)

On the one hand, his ideology is more or less identical to Orban's (he used to be a Fidesz party member until two tears ago).

On the other hand, he is somewhat EU friendly, supports Ukraine and, most importantly, is the head of a different party. 16 years of Fidesz rule is over. That's not nothing.

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  • [–] 70 points 7 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (4 children)

    He was known in the party as someone who disagreed on many decisions made by Orbán. He also stated it was not easy to leave and/or cut ties due to mafia-like behavior, fear of his or his family's life. His wife was head of Ministry of Justice, which she was kicked out due to also going against Orbán's wishes. pardoning a pedophile, and they divorced soon after.

    You have to understand that Orbán is literally an oligarch with tons of money, ties to Russia and the underworld. Magyar only quite recently collected enough support (about 2 years ago I think) to start his own political movement.

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  • [–] 30 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    He was known in the party as someone who disagreed on many decisions made by Orbán.

    Can you provide a source for this please? I am a Hungarian and never heard of this.

    His wife was head of Ministry of Justice, which she was kicked out due to also going against Orbán's wishes.

    She was kicked out because she gave an official pardon to a well known pedophile. They divorced after that.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago (1 child)

    Can you provide a source for this please? I am a Hungarian and never heard of this.

    They mentioned it in a Czech news podcast, so I'd link it to you, although I am not sure how useful that would be.

    She was kicked out because she gave an official pardon to a well known pedophile. They divorced after that.

    I've heard about the pardon, but not in direct relation to being kicked out because of that. Also sorry for my misinterpretation.

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    Oh okay. I am not arguing with you, just wanted some insight about how other countries cover the Orbán disaster. The pardon thing might just be a "find a scapegoat" scenario, in the Fidesz party that was a really popular solution to scandals. We will see how Magyar differs from Orbán, the bar is not high so we have hope things will get better.

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  • [–] 9 points 6 months ago*

    I'd say it helps that Hungary being in the EU probably limited Orban going full dictator. The EU had been chastising Hungary. Withholding EU funds hurts Hungary quite a bit. This is a reason why the far right hates the EU and looking to dismantle it, with the help of their American friends.

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  • [–] 32 points 6 months ago* (15 children)

    his ideology is more or less identical to Orban’s

    Fidesz (Orban):

    • Ideology: Christian Nationalism, Illiberalism, Authoritarianism, National Conservatism, Right-wing Populism
    • Political position: Far-right

    Tisza (Magyar):

    • Ideology: Conservative Liberalism, Populism, Pro-Europeanism
    • Political position: Centre to centre-right

    I've heard this angle before, but these parties don't seem to be in any way identical.

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  • [+] -12 points 6 months ago (12 children)

    "Conservative liberalism" is an oxymoron. Centre to centre-right means social liberalism and an acceptance/approval of the welfare state.

    Conservatism of any kind is right to far-right.

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  • [+] 11 points 6 months ago (8 children)
    [deleted]
    💯 1
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  • [+] -7 points 6 months ago (7 children)

    Conservatism is an ideology based on the idea of family-first policies, nationalism and religious values. You might as well claim that anarchism is anything that creates chaos or that liberalism is anything that makes you free. You have misunderstood what the word means in a political context.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (2 children)

    Conservatism means wanting to keep the society as it is. It is the antonym of being progressive. And that's it.

    A party that wants things to to just remain stable as they are is a conservative party. A party that wants to make dramatic changes is a progressive, or maybe also regressive, party. But absolutely not conservative.

    Yes, in USA some people have started using the word "conservative" in a different meaning. That doesn't alter what the word really means. Those who want to conserve what exists.

    (And in USA the Democratic party has taken the conservative role, whereas the Republican party has taken an anti-conservative role, driving radical changes to things. Changes to a direction I see as very damaging for everyone, but changes all the same. Wanting such huge changes makes you an anti-conservative.)

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  • [–] -1 points 6 months ago* (1 child)

    Conservatism means wanting to keep the society as it is.

    Conservatism has never been that. It has always been about defending the privilege of the unaccountable elite, against meritocracy and rule of law. Throughout history, conservatives supported vast social changes, as long as they were at the expense of working people. Consider the enclosure of the commons in Britain as one big example, that led to destitution, famine and mass emigration.

    So it's important to keep in mind what's being conserved: it's not the status quo, it's the rich's ability to do what they want without being held accountable. The actual policies promoted by conservatives have been widely changeable over time, but that key principle remains the same.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Funnily enough, the wikipedia page for conservative liberalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_liberalism) lists Fidesz as the prime and only example of Hungarian conservative liberal parties.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago

    In most of Europe, "liberal" means being in favor of free trade, and of unregulated capitalism in general. Conservative parties in many countries are called Liberals. Even in the UK Conservatives, there's a strong liberal (by the above definition) faction, along with the racists, authoritarians and religious reactionaries (the last of which are a much smaller minority here than in the US).

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  • [–] 2 points 6 months ago

    What is even funnier to me is that it lists the Swedish party Liberalerna as a "Conservative Liberal" party. That party has voted 100% (not 99% or 98%, exactly identical) to Moderaterna, a conservative party, during this latest four-year period. Nobody is going to vote for them in the upcoming election because they are a fundamentally unnecessary party that just does whatever Moderaterna tells them to do.

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  • [–] 5 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    Bernie Sanders is also a Democrat. Big parties, by definition, have people from all over the political spectrum inside.

    I don't know enough about him, but from what I read he is very different from Orban and his victory will be a case study for politicians all over the world that want to defeat Trumplike right wing politicians.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Big parties in FPTP and other non-proportional systems have people from all over the political spectrum.

    Big parties in MMP and other proportional systems have ideologies and stick to their ideologies.

    Bernie Sanders would never be in the same party as Joe Biden in a proportionally representative democracy.

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  • [–] 1 point 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

    Big parties in MMP and other proportional systems have ideologies and stick to their ideologies.

    Not really because big parties get more seats. In a voting circle with less people there will only be 1 or 2 seats available for that circle, so, they will go either 2 for the gov party or 1 for the gov and 1 for the main opposition party.

    Smaller parties will only elect seats in the capital or big cities, which means if you want to have a political career you choose the party that more or less aligns with you from the big ones.

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  • [+] -6 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    Oh fucking please. Fidesz got hammered by corruption scandals in 2024, Magyar dramatically breaks from the party over corruption, and somehow builds a massive nationwide coalition in a matter of months? The Hungarian opposition somehow abandons all its beliefs and rallies around a politician who holds all Orban's political views?

    The term for this is "planned opposition".

    Magyar isn't Orban's rival. He's Orban's chosen successor.

    It's easy to win an election if you own all the candidates.

    And y'all fell for it.

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  • [–] 6 points 6 months ago (2 children)

    If he was supposed to be Orban's successor, they wouldn't have had him start a new party or run a heavily pro-EU campaign. That makes no sense. You'd just have Orban step down and have the new guy take over in the next election cycle. Keeps momentum for the main party and all the installed cronies, no expectation of change from the population, no need to stir the hive. If Magyar backtracks on his promises now, you'll end up with a lot of unrest among the people, exactly what you want to avoid when planning your succession.

    Magyar's been communicating very effectively with the people for years. Opposition rallying behind the best chance at unseating an autocrat who threatens to establish indefinite single-party rule only makes sense.

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  • [–] -2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 child)

    That's why it's called planned opposition. If you're afraid of losing control to a genuine opposition movement, you set up a fake opposition movement that dramatically opposes you on a few big ticket items and generally agrees with you on the rest - or that dramatically opposes you on everything, but has no intention of keeping its promises.

    Look, I'd like to be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But I expect Magyar is going to make some dramatic economic moves that don't actually change the economy, run some corruption show trials, crack down on political participation outside the two major parties, back down on his pro-EU stances, and quietly take his orders from Orban and Putin behind the scenes.

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  • [–] 4 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Conspiracy smugness - I love it. I wonder what the technical term for that is.

    Tisza already announced a pro-Europe course and who has to gain most of that - Ukraine, but since Orban can't cut ties with Russia without falling out a window it was indeed a planned a opposition conspiracy by Orban that got taken over by Ukrainian intelligence which in turn is lead by the French DGSE, to get eastern Europe out of the Russian sphere.

    So basically you fell for one of the oldest tricks the French intelligence services deploy since Napoleon. If you take over the man behind the man (in this case Selensky) you can't lose and no one can trace it back to you.

    NB: Ex falso, quod libet.

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  • [–] 3 points 6 months ago (1 child)

    Me: am cautiously and very slightly optimistic while being aware of the fact that Magyar has a lot of similarities to Orban, and that Orban accepts the outcome of the election.

    You: You've been duped! He's Orban's chosen siccessor and you are fully unaware of this!

    Like, come on, man. Have some amount of hope in the betterment of the world. I'm not saying that progress under Magyar is a guarantee. I'm saying there is a possibility.

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