redblue farce (quokk.au)
submitted 7 months ago by to c/mop
 
A trolley problem meme captioned "The two party system" showing a person at a lever who can only change the color of the trolley from red to blue while it runs over a long line of people.
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[–] [S] 25 points 7 months ago* (22 children)

We should derail the trolley if it can only go forward at varying speeds.

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  • [–] 15 points 7 months ago (11 children)

    Maybe living on a planet where people are constantly tied to trolley tracks was a mistake.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    Well they weren't always tied to the tracks, that's a newish development.

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  • [–] 7 points 7 months ago (8 children)

    Then who tied them there?

    I blame agriculture.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    Was it you boomer? It was you don't lie

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  • [–] 5 points 7 months ago (9 children)

    so you're choosing to hurt one person (conductor) to save many (people tied to the rails)

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 7 months ago* (7 children)

    Yes, the conductor (ruling class) is the one in charge of the trolley. They’re free to stop the trolley and hop off if they want to live.

    Deontology Is for self-serving pricks.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (6 children)

    Deontology Is for self-serving pricks.

    ... aren't you advocating for deontology here?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 7 months ago* (5 children)

    Therefore, in the trolly case, a follower of classical utilitarianism would say that it is morally permissible to sacrifice 1 to save 5.

    [...]

    In this light, a follower of deontologism would argue that it is morally impermissible to sacrifice one to save five because making the choice of having to kill someone is inherently wrong.

    https://medium.com/@ashwinjitsingh/the-trolly-problem-utilitarianism-vs-deontology-bd624a8e321e

    I'm advocating for killing the least to save the most, a utilitarian approach.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (4 children)

    Wait, aren't your positions centered around the idea that violating your moral rules is inherently unacceptable (deontology) and thus dictates that you cannot take utilitarian actions which violate said moral rule?

    "I would do the right thing if it led to the right outcome" isn't utilitarianism, it's a non-dilemma.

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Utilitarianism is about the path that brings the greatest happiness, well-being, and good. To say my view is not utilitarian would only hold if you thought prolonging slow suffering lead to less suffering than outright stopping it.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (2 children)

    Alright, since I may not be understanding the totality of your positions, and that is legitimately on me...

    Apart from the question of what is and is not effective, assuming, for the sake of the argument, a moral dilemma wherein these are legitimately no other realistic outcomes...

    If the utilitarian choice, the choice that led to the least amount of suffering, was to support a genocidal group against another genocidal group, would you regard that as the morally obligatory choice, or not?

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 7 months ago* (1 child)

    If that was truly the case I would choose neither and abandon utilitarianism for an existentialism/nihilism approach, violently rebelling against both choices - even if in futility. A deontologist would sit back and do nothing, not wanting to participate in any violence as it was morally incorrect.

    But luckily we do not live in such a world, and we always have more than 2 options with how to proceed.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago

    If that was truly the case I would choose neither and abandon utilitarianism for an existentialism/nihilism approach, violently rebelling against both choices - even if in futility. A deontologist would sit back and do nothing, not wanting to participate in any violence as it was morally incorrect.

    That's a very deontological response, though. Your decision is that genocide is wrong, and therefore, no amount of genocide prevention is worth engaging in it - a strongly **anti-**utilitarian position. A deontologist is not simply someone who says "Violence is unacceptable", but who says "Rules are inviolable (or near to it)".

    Your rule is not "Violence is unacceptable" but "Genocide is unacceptable"; your response is entirely within a deontological framework. When presented with a situation where you have a clear preference of outcome, but in which all decisions to reach the desired outcome violate your deontological moral sense, you choose to prefer action that avoids the violation of your deontological moral sense even if it leads to a worse outcome, in a very anti-utilitarian sense.

    But luckily we do not live in such a world, and we always have more than 2 options with how to proceed.

    I generally agree. Mostly I bring this up for two reasons:

    1. Pointing out that deontology is very much part of most people's moral intuition, including your's as argued on here.

    2. That there are no-win scenarios in moral reasoning, short of asserting that you are capable of effecting literally any outcome via any process just by doing it hard enough. In which case, I would kindly ask you to save the world, because it's really shitty as-is.

    There may be a million choices instead of two, but there's no guarantee that any of the million will be acceptable in both process and outcome to you. You may have to make a choice, and the choice may be ugly - and even refusing to make a choice is a choice of inaction (or ineffectual action), with all the guilt that implies.

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