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VIDEO: FBI Agents Visit Anti-ICE Protester (www.kenklippenstein.com)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/usa@midwest.social
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“Your name was brought up.”

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[–] 39 points 1 year ago (15 children)

Do not open the door without a warrant, do not speak to federal agents without the presence of a lawyer. Unlike state level law enforcement it's actually illegal to lie to a federal officer. They will attempt to confuse you and get you to lie or mislead them and will prosecute you for that if they can't pin you for something worse.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    Absolutely. Under normal circumstances, the full version of the guidelines is:

    • Go to the door, walk outside to speak with them without giving time for them to step in and absolutely without inviting them inside, and close the door behind you.
    • You do have to identify yourself, with a physical ID or with name and birthdate. It can be a crime to refuse under certain circumstances and unless you are crystal clear on the law it's probably a better idea to ID yourself rather than give them a reason to arrest you.
    • Cooperate if they want to arrest you or they serve you with a signed search warrant. Arguing or resisting will do absolutely nothing to prevent them from violating your rights, if you believe they are violating your rights, but it will get you some additional charges which can be pretty serious. If they say they need to pat you down for weapons, or announce that they are searching your car, make it clear that you don't consent, but don't try to physically prevent them from doing it, because that is a crime.
    • As far as any questions or searches outside of those specific areas, it is always Shut The Fuck Up Friday. Answer absolutely nothing. Agree to absolutely no searches. Say that if they're here for a criminal investigation, you will only speak to them through legal counsel and ask if you're free to go. They will start with harmless questions, they will be friendly a lot of the time, they will sound reasonable. Ask if you're free to go. Repeat that you have nothing to say. Be polite but firm, be patient, and shut the fuck up. Leave as soon as they tell you you're free to go, but otherwise just be chill and don't say shit in response to whatever they have.
    • If they do arrest you they may make it sound like a good idea to speak with them, because it will help you. It will not. It will help them build their case, that is literally the only possible reason they might give a shit about spending time with you. Anything that is actually advantageous about talking with them will still be advantageous after you've talked with a lawyer. Again, be polite, but shut the fuck up whatever they say or however they manage to make it sound.

    That is all advice for the before times, sometimes it is wrong now. ICE in particular has a habit at this point of just giving up and going away if people don't come outside, and snatching them if they do come outside. It's hard to give advice in general, but I would say that if it's feds at this point, or if your local law enforcement is friendly with ICE, just pretend you're not home and just wait for them to bust down the door if that's what they're planning to do. They will either do that or something like it, or they will leave. Might be a good idea to put your phone on silent and text some people you know letting them know what's happening, too.

    The only exception I can think of to this is if they threaten to send the K9 in, if you don't come to the door, and you may get bit. Are they bluffing? I don't know, man. Use your best judgement.

    And of course, maybe it's a good idea now to make a bunch of noise, get your neighbors involved, keep the door locked, intimidate them back. There are so many scenarios that it's really just hard to say.

    Anyway, if they do bust the door in (or pull you out of the car or whatever), it's a good time to practice your shut the fuck up skills. Don't say you were sleeping. Don't say you were in the back and didn't hear anything. Don't say you didn't answer the door because fuck you blah blah blah constitution. Just shut the fuck up. Why didn't you answer the door? "I've got nothing to say sir." Didn't you hear us? "I'll only answer questions with legal counsel." We were out there for a while though. You must have heard us. "Like I said, I've got nothing to say, sir." And so on.

    Like I say things are changing. This is just generic advice. Things now are getting unstable.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    You absolutely should not go outside. You have rights in your home you don't have when you leave it. If for some reason you want to talk to potentially adversarial cops, do it from within your house and behind a closed door. You have no obligation to speak to them just because they come to your door.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (12 children)

    You have rights in your home you don’t have when you leave it.

    What rights are those? Be specific.

    Again, my advice is for the before-times. Whatever TikTok would have you believe, you will not shield yourself from getting arrested simply by trying to hide in your house if they do have a warrant for you, and it is not unsafe to walk out and talk with them if they don't have a warrant for you (as long as you don't say shit and keep it brief). If you try to hide in your house and make them break in if they do want to take you, all you've done is created damage to your house which they will not fix and also given them the opportunity to see things in plain view inside your house in the performance of their duties.

    In the current times... yeah, like I said, you might be right. Be careful. I honestly wouldn't even try to have the through-the-door conversation unless I was confident of what agency they were from and that they were legit in whatever they were trying to do, I might just stay quiet inside and see what happens.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    Again, my advice is for the before-times. Whatever TikTok would have you believe, you will not shield yourself from getting arrested simply by trying to hide in your house if they do have a warrant for you, and it is not unsafe to walk out and talk with them if they don't have a warrant for you (as long as you don't say shit and keep it brief).

    Even in the "before-times" there is no reason to actually answer the door unless they present a warrant signed by a judge.

    What is the benefit of stepping outside the legal protection of your home? You are under no obligation to speak to the police even if you have been arrested, you cannot be forced to incriminate yourself in a crime. That's why we have the 5th amendment.

    The go too line is "I don't answer questions without a lawyer present". If they press you and tell you that they will charge you with impending an investigation. Tell them "I would love to cooperate, but I really feel I would need to speak to a lawyer first". This makes any delay in the investigation their responsibility as things would be moving along if they weren't denying you your right to representation.

    What rights are those? Be specific.

    The Fourth Amendment protects the sanctity of the home against unreasonable searches and seizures. A warrant is required to enter a private residence for a routine arrest, establishing that there is probable cause and that a judge has authorized the police to enter. Exceptions to this rule include emergencies, consent, and "hot pursuit," where police have probable cause to believe a person is fleeing into the home to escape an immediate threat. 

    Meaning that by stepping outside your home, the required probable cause for your arrest is lowered to the judgement of the arresting officer and not a Judge. Just opening the door can open avenues of argument in court, like the cop lying and saying they heard someone ask for help, or that they saw illegal activities happening from the doorway.

    Even if it may not protect you from being arrested, if an officer violates your 4th amendment protections any evidence found during an illegal search is dismissable in court.

    Never answer the door unless they present a warrant with a judges signature. A good investment is a camera with 2 way voice communication, so if you do want to communicate with police(to tell them to leave), you can do it without breaching the legal security of your home.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    They can 100% tell you verbally through the door "You are under arrest," and at that point, staying inside your house is obstruction. This idea that by making it physically difficult for the cops to put their hands on you, you're putting yourself in a better position legally or practically, is 100% wrong. They are well prepared to deal with physical obstructions. In general, being antagonistic to the police or putting obstacles in the way of them doing basic things like talking will motivate them to make your life more difficult, which they definitely can do.

    Personally, I think people place way too much emphasis on the "arrested" part of the equation and way too little on the "charged and building the case" part. If you stay inside, they leave and issue a warrant for you because they never got a chance to talk to you, and then pick you up later, for example, you've gained absolutely nothing. If you step outside, they arrest you, but you didn't manage to add any charges with how you handled yourself and didn't give them anything to help them build their case, then that's about the best outcome you can have. Crucially, I think encouraging people to be physically obstructive with the cops tends to build habits that can serve them very very poorly in the future.

    If you don't believe me, here are some law offices' professional explanations, which honestly are kind of better than what I said. What I said is just a clear simple guideline based on my understanding.

    https://sieronlaw.com/posts/when-police-show-up-at-your-door/

    https://www.snaderlawgroup.com/dos-donts-police-door/

    https://www.ohlsonlawoffice.com/blog/2024/09/what-to-do-if-the-police-come-to-your-door-a-guide-to-handling-the-situation/

    Again, all of this is kind of fluid or no longer accurate right now anyway, because the rules are changing. In the current climate I would start to lean more towards just not answering the door at all, but a lot of it depends on what agency they're with.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    They can 100% tell you verbally through the door "You are under arrest," and at that point, staying inside your house is obstruction. This idea that by making it physically difficult for the cops to put their hands on you, you're putting yourself in a better position legally or practically, is 100% wrong.

    Lol, no they cannot..... Not unless they have an arrest or search warrant.

    From your own source

    "If the police do not have a warrant, you can: Greet them outside after exiting through another door if you think they might try to force their way into your home. Speak with officers with the door ajar and secured by a chain lock. Decline to answer the door at all."

    They are well prepared to deal with physical obstructions. In general, being antagonistic to the police or putting obstacles in the way of them doing basic things like talking will motivate them to make your life more difficult, which they definitely can do.

    It's not the door that is obstructing them, it's the 4th amendment. Keeping the door closed just makes it a lot more apparent if they decide to disregard your constitutional rights.

    Personally, I think people place way too much emphasis on the "arrested" part of the equation and way too little on the "charged and building the case" part.

    Keeping police out of your residence is a pretty good way from having them collect evidence to build a case against you. To obtain a warrant they have to present evidence to a judge that there is a reasonable cause to breach your rights.

    If you stay inside, they leave and issue a warrant for you because they never got a chance to talk to you, and then pick you up later, for example, you've gained absolutely nothing.

    If you go to step outside and they falsely claim that they witnessed something inside that provides reason to enter your home you may lose your 4th amendment protections.

    This is why in the source you posted it specifies that if you want to talk to them with the door ajar to keep it locked with a chain. Police are know to put their foot in the door, or stand in the doorway so that if you attempt to close it on them they can claim you assaulted them.

    think encouraging people to be physically obstructive with the cops tends to build habits that can serve them very very poorly in the future.

    Lol, utilizing your rights is not "physical obstruction".

    f you don't believe me, here are some law offices' professional explanations, which honestly are kind of better than what I said. What I said is just a clear simple guideline based on my understanding.

    You didn't read these, or you didn't comprehend what you read. You should not be advising anyone about their rights if you have no idea about how the 4th or 5th amendment function.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    They can 100% tell you verbally through the door “You are under arrest,” and at that point, staying inside your house is obstruction. This idea that by making it physically difficult for the cops to put their hands on you, you’re putting yourself in a better position legally or practically, is 100% wrong.

    Lol, no they cannot….. Not unless they have an arrest or search warrant.

    I don't think you understand how a cop telling you "you are under arrest" works, and I don't really want to have an extended back and forth with you about this. You can read the links I sent, if you want general guidance. Cheers.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    don't think you understand how a cop telling you "you are under arrest" works

    Again... It's not something you have to leave your house for unless they have an arrest warrant.

    can read the links I sent, if you want general guidance. Cheers.

    The quote I used from those sources disproves your claim. Your sources don't support your argument at all.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    I happened to run across a video which is highly pertinent to this situation.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC2h2bSZJao

    That's pretty much what you can expect if you try the "I'm inside I'm not opening the door" strategy. Like you can see from the end of the video, the cops didn't really have any ability to charge them with anything as long as they exercised their shut the fuck up skills (which, to their credit, they did a great job with). But all it accomplished refusing to open the door was to make the situation a lot more violent before the conversation with the cops happened where they refused to say anything.

    I think, probably, the homeowners were correct that the situation wasn't that big a deal in the first place. But, they made a pretty serious mistake by listening to your brand of TikTok law and getting their door destroyed and getting arrested as a result, instead of just walking outside and having the conversation pre-handcuffs.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (4 children)

    But all it accomplished refusing to open the door was to make the situation a lot more violent before the conversation with the cops happened where they refused to say anything.

    They had probable cause..... A person inside the building was the person who made the report and the officers were able to see blood through the unobscured glass doors.

    This is nothing like what we were talking about.

    But, they made a pretty serious mistake by listening to your brand of TikTok law and getting their door destroyed and getting arrested as a result, instead of just walking outside and having the conversation pre-handcuffs.

    They made a mistake by having glass doors that give them no privacy. And it's not ticktock law, it's just the law.

    If you want to abandon your 4th amendment rights, go right ahead.

    Also..... How long has this been living rent free in your head? This back and forth was done ages ago.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    There are a couple more I happened to run across, this one just seemed really on the nose about what generally will happen if you try to hide in your house. It reminded me of our conversation.

    In another of them, the girl had a warrant and tried to refuse to come out of her house so she wouldn't have to stay in jail for the weekend. Long story short, she got arrested and more charges. That one, they didn't have the ability to enter the house without a warrant, they just had the arrest warrant for her specifically, so they were waiting for a judge to sign off on a warrant but were able to talk her into coming out before the warrant came through.

    There was another where the guy was hiding in a closet inside the house. They didn't have a warrant, but they did have probable cause to enter the place, so long story short he got arrested even with the hiding in the closet part.

    Your summary of how it works, way way above, was actually pretty accurate (warrant or emergency being the two main exceptions to the general rule that they can't come in your house). The thing is that about 90% of the situations where they're coming to the door and are planning to arrest you will fall into one or the other of those categories. You gain nothing in the "they just want to talk" situation, and you gain nothing in the "they want to arrest you" situation. These are just some examples of people who tried to solve the problem by not interacting physically with the cops, and then it not working to accomplish anything positive.

    (Again, this is only for local law enforcement, and only if they are generally aboveboard. For ICE or federal law enforcement, or if you're not sure, I think not answering the door is probably smarter at this point.)

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago (2 children)

    Long story short, she got arrested and more charges.

    Like?

    they were waiting for a judge to sign off on a warrant but were able to talk her into coming out before the warrant came through.

    And how does this support your argument? She was talked out of the protection of her home.

    was hiding in a closet inside the house. They didn't have a warrant, but they did have probable cause to enter the place, so long story short he got arrested even with the hiding in the closet part.

    Again.... If it goes to court and the lawyers can defend the officers reasoning for probable cause then they throw out the case. If you volunteer yourself they don't have to establish a legitimate probable cause.

    The thing is that about 90% of the situations where they're coming to the door and are planning to arrest you will fall into one or the other of those categories.

    Not at all.... They need to be able to provide evidence for their breach of your rights in court. Will it help you beat the ride, no. But it very well may help you beat the case, which is the important bit.

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  • [–] 0 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    Like?

    Resisting arrest, I think. "You're under arrest, come out of the house" "No" is literally what it means to resist arrest (without violence). Coming out later doesn't absolve you of it any more than slowing down absolves you for speeding earlier.

    And how does this support your argument? She was talked out of the protection of her home.

    Have you been checked for short term memory loss? It's like you forgot the first part of my sentence by the time you got to the second part. Staying in the protection of her home would have just gotten her home busted up once they secured the warrant.

    IDK, dude. I was just trying to send you a video to help you understand, but you're clearly not into it. I remember now why I stopped talking to you back before when we talked about this.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    Resisting arrest, I think. "You're under arrest, come out of the house" "No" is literally what it means to resist arrest (without violence). Coming out later doesn't absolve you of it any more than slowing down absolves you for speeding earlier.

    Police cannot lawfully order you out of your home without an arrest warrant or exigent circumstances (like seeing blood through the window). You can't be charged with resisting arrest for failing to comply with an unlawful order. They can try, but it would be easily thrown out in court.

    Staying in the protection of her home would have just gotten her home busted up once they secured the warrant.

    If they got the proper warrant...... Cops lie all the time.

    dude. I was just trying to send you a video to help you understand

    You have no idea what you're talking about and are unable to provide a meaningful interpretation or legal advice based on what you see in a video.

    I remember now why I stopped talking to you back before when we talked about this.

    Yeah... Please continue to not talk to me.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    Cops can't enter your home without a warrant, exigent circumstances, or your consent, which means cops can't arrest you without the same, maneuver you into a position to provoke you into resisting or "assaulting" them, or detain you in hopes that you'll talk to them to get out of it. The door is a very clear legal and physical barrier to keep any interaction on your terms.

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