andrewrgross comments on I don't like it, but I don't make the rules

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net [S] 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I don't know much about the Political Defiance approach you linked. Could you summarize it (the link is a whole book).

Overall, I agree with you. I don't like violence, and I think it's one of the least effective tools for constructive change. But I also recognize that if you're serious and honest about political theory you can't really just write off violence as "never the answer".

At the very least, folks need to think about approaches to defense when people with less compunction about violence come for them.

Also, I want to add that my personal theory is that combatting fascism requires a lot of separate approaches and distinct actors working in a way that is synergistic, even if people within that effort have strong ideological divisions.

My personal role is that I'm focused on efforts to demonstrate and promote the alternatives to fascism -- socialism -- locally through politics, labor and tenant organizing, and mutual aid. So I'm not picking up any guns any time soon. But I'm not going to tell the black bloc folks how to do their job and I expect they won't tell me how to do mine.

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 3 points 1 year ago (5 children)

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=political+defiance&ia=web -> https://therevolutioncontinues.substack.com/p/pursuing-political-defiance

But I’m not going to tell the black bloc folks how to do their job and I expect they won’t tell me how to do mine.

"I'm not going to tell the police-planted agitators how to do their job and I expect they won't tell me how to do mine."

Honestly, what you're saying sounds pretty similar to what I'm saying (IDK why you felt the need to couch precisely what I am saying behind this phrasing of "But I also recognize..."). But this sentence in particular is precisely the opposite of both what Gene Sharp's research recommends, and what I've heard of as the general practice in US protests. Maybe it's different now (and, like both of us are saying, different situations are different), but from people I've spoken with the best practice when someone near you is getting violent is pretty much the exact opposite of letting them "do their job" unhindered.

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[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net [S] 2 points 1 year ago* (4 children)

Thanks for the link. I'm looking forward to reading through this after work.

At a glance, I think the kind of defiance that you're talking about seems pretty close to my form of activism. My point was just that I don't have an inclination to spend effort fighting against people who pursue other approaches to common goals unless I see them as directly in conflict with whatever specific task I'm trying to do.

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

unless I see them as directly in conflict with whatever specific task I’m trying to do.

In a whole lot of situations, protestors applying violence against government forces is very much directly in conflict with the protest succeeding.

Not always, but a lot of the time. That's what I was saying.

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[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

Yeah... I think that's a salient concern. However I think in the practical sense it's still unclear to me how that should inform my approach.

Personally, I already try and spend more time and effort promoting what I want to create then I spend fighting against what I don't want. I see a lot of stuff and wish I could be doing more to obstruct ICE, for instance. But I remind myself that I have a plans and projects and while I should be aware of what's going on and available to help, I need to entrust a lot of that to others while I focus on a lot of other stuff. Providing childcare to a DSA meeting and trying to make sure our school boards and rent boards are comprised of folks who are providing for people is stuff that needs done.

So if I don't have enough time to confront ICE, I definitely don't have time to squabble with other leftists. Is going on Bluesky to bicker with people who smash the windows of banks that fund genocide and climate collapse going to help me do the stuff I'm working on? I don't see how, so I'm comfortable staying neutral.

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[–] PhilipTheBucket@piefed.social 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

Is going on Bluesky to bicker with people who smash the windows of banks that fund genocide and climate collapse going to help me do the stuff I’m working on?

I mean, I don't know about that, but preventing them from becoming violent against ICE (which is what we were talking about) when you come into contact with them in your specific area, and in general talking about the inadvisibility of it on the internet and elsewhere, seems like a good idea. It's actually specifically the fact that being vigilant about this will help the stuff you're working on (by making it possible for you to do it without maybe getting shot) that make it specifically important.

Gene Sharp actually talked about this: The absolute necessity of maintaining discipline about nonviolence if that's what you've decided is tactically necessary at the moment, or completely separating in a visible and public-relations-understandable way from people who are doing that if you're unable to prevent it. It is one of the a few key elements which is both vital and a lot harder than it might seem. A lot of random people tend to show up with all kinds of vigorous personal ideas about what might lead to the movement's success, including actions which will fuck things up for the movement on a truly catastrophic scale. (Again - this is why police tend to plant agitators who will deliberately take things in that direction. They wouldn't do that if it was fine for it to happen.) This kind of "live and let live" approach as to whether or not to get violent against state forces is very specifically dangerous in a very specific way.

(They actually talked about this on the Gaza flotilla, too: They did drills and training for how to react when the Israelis were approaching to avoid giving them any kind of impression of violence or resistance, because it's very easy for them to just start shooting and that's not what is wanted. Part of the qualification process for even being allowed to be physically present was that you had passed some tests as far as your physical ability to get mistreated without reacting.)

Does that make sense? I feel like I've said this 2-3 times now and you keep rebooting back to square 1 of your side of the conversation, as if I hadn't said it.

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[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net [S] 1 point 1 year ago*

It makes sense. However I'm ambivalent on the matter. If I'm repeating myself it's because I'm not debating, I'm just telling you how I think. But I appreciate greatly that you've given me some literature that I can digest. I try and pride myself on being responsive to new info and adjusting my position, and I think we're already pretty close on this, so it wouldn't exactly be a huge pivot.

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