UnderpantsWeevil comments on Poll: Capitalism is out … and socialism is in

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Your view of China has been trapped in Chinese propaganda.

Funny, because I was stuck in Hong Kong for a couple of weeks during the 2019 riots. Was it Chinese propaganda when the students were waving big "Trump 2020" banners?

I would not say that the Chinese that are living a lavish life with a lot of luxury are living a socialist life.

I wouldn't say this about anyone. It's not "luxury" if everyone's enjoying it. That's sort of the joke of socialism. It's a basic standard of human comfort, not a lavish expression of artificial scarcity. One day you wake up and there's cheap abundant cavier and 1 carat perfect clarity diamonds at bargain basement prices. Then they're not delicacies reserved for the privileged elites anymore.

They might be an example of how “capitalism makes people happy”

Sure, if you ignore that the Maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry.

When wealth isn't being ruthlessly consolidated and surplus value vacuumed up from a powerless working class, its easy to walk down a main street in the Futain district and think "Wow, we've got Toys'R'Us in the states, too! I guess they're just as capitalist as we are."

Only problem is that Toys'R'Us doesn't exist in the US anymore, on account of a leveraged buyout and subsequent bust-out of the business. Commercial practices that would get you run out of town on a rail in Beijing are how you get rich quick in the States.

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[–] Tuuktuuk@piefed.ee 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

It’s not “luxury” if everyone’s enjoying it.

Correct.
In the case of China it's not enjoyed by everyone, though. A typical Chinese toilet is a huge hole in the ground with some kind of slabs of concrete over them, with a 15 cm wide slit between the slabs. You go stand on the two slabs and poop into the cavity underneath. There is typically a roof overneath. Homes often don't have anything on the floors. Just bare concrete.

The people living in opulence are not enjoying something everyone there has. They are enjoying something only the richest 0,5 % among their people has. China is a country where wealth is concentrated extremely strongly to the few.

Sure, if you ignore that the Maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry.

That happened long before yesterday, though. If you look at decades such as 1970's or 1980's or even later, you'll notice that whatever Mao was striving for, got eventually all undone.

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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

In the case of China it’s not enjoyed by everyone, though.

The industrialization of scarce commodities significantly increases the number of consumers of the given good or service.

A typical Chinese toilet is a huge hole in the ground

It's funny, because I've been in some shockingly fancy squatty-potty restrooms. Definitely took some getting used to. But that's more a consequence of culture than economic necessity. And anything that's been renovated in the last 30 years will have a handicap accessible stall with a sit-down toilet.

I feel like I'm talking to someone who spent six months in the West Virginia back country, trying to insist everyone in the US still uses the Outhouse. What you're describing doesn't exist in any of the massive high rise apartments thrown up all over the eastern seaboard. You're discounting hundreds of millions of people.

The people living in opulence are not enjoying something everyone there has.

The people still living in rural backwaters are at the tail end of a massive upgrade to trade and travel. They received access to modern industrial farming and manufacturing back in the 80s and 90s. That's why you don't need a full third of the population manually planting rice anymore just to avoid a continent-spanning famine.

If you didn't notice the big industrial combines and giant metal storehouses, nevermind the full electrification of the back country (a feat neighboring India, rural Latin America, Central Africa, and even parts of Eastern Europe have struggled to achieve) then you weren't looking.

That happened long before yesterday, though.

It laid the foundation for a century of economic growth and prosperity. What you're seeing today is the fruit of the revolutionaries' labor.

whatever Mao was striving for, got eventually all undone.

China passed through an industrial revolution and changed the underlying economy from subsistence farms to a modern manufacturing and professional service-based economy. That's not a reversal of the Long March. It's the fondest dream of any well-read Marxist scholar.

Shorter working hours, high living standards, a more educated population, and a robust domestically owned and operated worker economy is Socialist stage of economic development that Marxists strive towards... until they get there and seek to go further.

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