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[Update] AtomicPoet has deleted the piefed.social communities where he was the sole moderator (!movies@piefed.social </c/movies@piefed.social> being the exception). Content is still available, details in the linked post (lazysoci.al)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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https://atomicpoet.org/@atomicpoet/posts/AyVP1erbZe8tUJAPNg

Edit: previous post: https://lemmy.world/post/36281965

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[–] 7 points 1 year ago (25 children)

I think the issue was banning for giving votes you didn't agree with, not with sending the DMs. I've sent DMs instead of doing admin actions before, just to open a dialogue, or to give people a chance to push back or explain before I take some kind of action, and that part seems fine. I can't even really articulate why it was that this rubbed people so badly the wrong way, but I think sending the DMs and getting in an extended back and forth did somehow make it worse. Definitely doubling down and banning people (and also DMing them) because their reaction and vote on it wasn't the "correct" and permitted one according to you made it worse.

People can vote. People can react. Setting yourself up as this lord and arbiter of what's right and wrong is always going to make a backlash. If it was me, I would have made a public reply instead of a DM so that other people can weigh in, I would have framed it in terms of "what I allow here" and made sure to clarify the rules on the sidebar instead of framing your point of view as the one that's objectively the right one (which you're still doing here, when you describe calling someone "bro" as "toxic" instead of saying that you personally think it's rude and don't allow it). And then if they still don't agree, you're still within your rights to just say yes okay fine but that's the rules, sorry, and ban them (and then move on yes).

I still think you would have gotten backlash, but framing it in that way would have at least shown you have some awareness that these categories and judgements are just your categories and judgements, and regardless of what the Lemmy software's mod controls have led you to believe, other people are allowed to have their own that are different from yours. If you'd done that I don't think it would have really developed to anything, there might have been one YPTB post about it at worst and then people would have shrugged and moved on with their day.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago (24 children)

    I’ll say this again: the DM wasn’t about a single vote. It was about endorsing toxic behaviour.

    Now, about this word “bro.” On the surface, it comes across as casual, even friendly. But in practice, “bro” tends to be shorthand for a culture that excuses arrogance, entitlement, and pack mentality under the banner of camaraderie.

    A “bro” is the person who laughs at cruelty because it’s entertaining. The one who treats someone else’s discomfort as sport. The one who believes inside jokes and mockery outweigh basic respect. That isn’t just harmless slang—it’s a posture that normalizes being inconsiderate.

    So when people lean on the word “bro,” they’re not just using a throwaway expression. They’re reinforcing a culture built on lowest-common-denominator bonding, where aggression is rewarded, harm is brushed off, and civility is treated like weakness. That’s not a culture I want to foster in spaces I’m responsible for.

    Now, you may disagree, and that’s fair. But this is my interpretation. And when everyone doubled down on “bro”—using it in the exact way I find problematic—it only confirmed for me that they were subscribing to bro culture. I don’t do bro, bruh, brah, or dudebro for good reason.

    What struck me is that nobody asked why. They just assumed it was a quirk. But to me, it’s not a quirk—it’s a principle. Maybe these are simply my categories and judgements, but I believe the world genuinely needs fewer bros. Fewer Andrew Tates. Fewer Donald Trumps.

    Yes, this is one of my lines in the sand. And the fact that so many people on Lemmy seem comfortable embracing “bro” as an identity—that, to me, is a real problem.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (18 children)

    Sure. That's all your opinion. And the rest of Lemmy is letting you know how they plan to react, when instead of trying to convince them of that while respecting their ability to make up their own mind at the end of the day, you ban them for expressing even a hint of any other viewpoint, and insist that they're being bad.

    I don't even think your viewpoint is crazy or wrong or anything, but bouncing on mod controls and insisting to people implicitly that they're being "toxic" if they think anything different even if they literally didn't mean anything wrong or offensive, and there's a 0% chance that their viewpoint has any validity and 100% that yours is the objectively right viewpoint, isn't going to make progress on turning people around to it.

    Good luck with your instance I guess.

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  • [–] -5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (17 children)

    If Lemmy and bro culture are synonymous, then Lemmy has to be fixed.

    If Lemmy will not fix its bro culture, then I will defederate Lemmy.

    I believe not all of Lemmy is bro culture. But for those servers that are fine with bro culture, I will de-federate them.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (14 children)

    This is a super weird take. Lemmy is full of diverse communities and instances. Our instance, for example, has a really high percentage of users with ADHD, ASD and other neurodivergences. We also have a ton of LGBTQI+ folks. So all I'm saying is don't be too quick to paint Lemmy users with a broad brush.

    If Lemmy and bro culture are synonymous, then Lemmy has to be fixed.

    Lemmy isn't about creating a monoculture with a fixed set of values. It's about having diverse communities and instances with their own sets of values and rules. That's the beauty of Lemmy and the fediverse. Demanding that we adopt and police some universal "politeness" code across every instance that prohibits the use of the word "bro" simply because that's what you want is really quite a bizarre notion. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how Lemmy and the fediverse operates. So no, it doesn't need to be fixed. It is working as intended. Diversity is a big strength of the fediverse. We actively don't want such things in place, because that's what happened at places like Reddit, owned by big corpos who suddenly decided they wanted everything advertiser friendly for their IPO.

    If you want to be lord and master of your own corner of the internet, nobody is stopping you. But c'mon... all this judgmental language against whole communities of people simply because some folks dared to disagree with your opinion on this topic? It seems like the only thing you have done in this post is make yourself seem even more unreasonable about the topic. None of your responses show a trace of self-reflection, or acceptance of the different perspectives that were shared with you, which is kinda disappointing. If you adopt the position that you are always right and everyone who criticizes you is wrong, then what does that make you? You should do some self crit.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Lemmy is full of diverse communities and instances… so don’t paint with a broad brush.

    I never said Lemmy lacked diversity. I explicitly wrote that not all of Lemmy is bro culture. My point was about specific servers that embrace that culture. Those are the ones I will de-federate from. That’s not a broad brush—it’s a filter.

    Demanding that we adopt and police some universal ‘politeness’ code… is a bizarre notion.

    I didn’t demand anything universal. That’s a strawman. I’m not lobbying for every instance to adopt my preferences. I said my server will have standards, and I will apply them consistently. That’s the very opposite of imposing uniformity—it’s me choosing how I run my space.

    It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how Lemmy and the fediverse operates.

    On the contrary, it shows I understand it perfectly. Federation is built on choice. The right to set boundaries for my server—including who I federate with—is not a misunderstanding, it’s the entire point of federation.

    So no, it doesn’t need to be fixed. It is working as intended.

    You misread my statement. I didn’t say Lemmy needs fixing outright. I said: if Lemmy and bro culture are synonymous, then Lemmy has to be fixed. That’s a conditional. It only applies in the hypothetical scenario where bro culture is inseparable from Lemmy.

    We actively don’t want such things in place, because that’s what happened at Reddit…

    Again, this ignores what I wrote. I’m not calling for top-down enforcement or advertiser-friendly sanitization. I’m calling for exercising my own discretion on my own server. That’s literally the opposite of Reddit’s centralized approach.

    If you want to be lord and master of your own corner of the internet, nobody is stopping you.”

    Exactly. That’s what I said I would do. I’m glad you recognize that, but your comment tries to paint that decision as unreasonable when it’s actually how the Fediverse is designed to function.

    All this judgmental language against whole communities…

    That’s projection. I didn’t condemn all communities, just those that embrace a style I don’t want to interact with. There’s nothing “judgmental” about drawing lines for the environment I’m responsible for maintaining. Every server admin does this, even if they call it by softer names.

    You’ve made yourself seem unreasonable… no trace of self-reflection.

    That’s an unfair characterization. Self-reflection is exactly why I framed my statement with an if. I left room for nuance, acknowledged diversity, and clarified my standards. You ignored those elements and replaced them with a caricature.

    If you adopt the position that you are always right… you should do some self-crit.

    Nobody said I’m always right. What I said is: these are my standards, and I will enforce them on my server. That’s not about being universally “right.” It’s about being consistent with the principles I believe in. If that’s not to your taste, the beauty of federation is that you don’t have to engage with me at all.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (12 children)

    Nobody said I’m always right. What I said is: these are my standards, and I will enforce them on my server. That’s not about being universally “right.” It’s about being consistent with the principles I believe in.

    While at the same time passing judgment and adopting a disdainful tone towards [those who] disagreed with your opinion. That is the most objectionable part.

    For example, in regard to people who (perfectly reasonably) responded negatively towards your private messages, you said:

    Where I misjudged things—and I see this clearly now—was in thinking that private messages would actually reduce conflict. They don’t. If someone shows signs of being toxic, or openly supports toxic behaviour, it’s best to take them at their word. A conversation in that situation won’t lead anywhere productive.

    And the only reason you had for calling those users "toxic" is because they showed some sign of disagreement with your previously unpublished and unknown policy? They are not the toxic ones in this scenario.

    A “bro” is the person who laughs at cruelty because it’s entertaining. [...]

    I mean really? Talk about hyperbole. Any one of us could easily come up with 10 negative and 10 positive connotations for the word "bro", or "sis" or basically anything else. All you seem to be doing is mis-characterising the use of a commonplace word as problematic based on nothing but your own imaginings, and then using that mis-characterisation to vilify users you disagree with on the topic.

    If that’s not to your taste, the beauty of federation is that you don’t have to engage with me at all.

    As an anarchist, rigid hierarchies and those who create them aren't to my taste.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    While at the same time passing judgment and adopting a disdainful tone towards disagreed with your opinion. That is the most objectionable part.

    Pointing out where I draw boundaries isn’t disdain—it’s clarity. I’ve said repeatedly that not all of Lemmy is bro culture. What I won’t do is pretend that dismissive behaviour (“cool story bro”) is just harmless slang. That’s not disdain, that’s naming behaviour for what it is.

    And the only reason you had for calling those users ‘toxic’ is because they showed some sign of disagreement with your previously unpublished and unknown policy?”*

    That’s not accurate. I didn’t call people toxic simply for disagreeing. I said if someone shows signs of being toxic or openly supports toxic behaviour, I take them at their word. That’s different from disagreement. You’re collapsing behaviour and disagreement into the same thing, and they’re not.

    A ‘bro’ is the person who laughs at cruelty because it’s entertaining… I mean really? Talk about hyperbole. Any one of us could easily come up with 10 negative and 10 positive connotations for the word ‘bro.’

    This isn’t hyperbole. “Bro” is rarely neutral in practice. It has consistent cultural functions:

    • Fake familiarity (“cool story bro” from strangers isn’t friendship).
    • Diminishment and mockery (it often carries sarcasm).
    • Gender exclusion (assumes a male default in-group).
    • Gender assumption (applies a label regardless of identity).

    That’s not me inventing baggage out of thin air—it’s how the word is used in real contexts.

    All you seem to be doing is mis-characterising the use of a commonplace word as problematic based on nothing but your own imaginings, and then using that mis-characterisation to vilify users you disagree with on the topic.

    No. I’m not vilifying people for disagreement. I’m drawing a line against behaviours and tones that diminish others. That’s the job of an admin: curating the space they’re responsible for. The word “bro” as commonly used isn’t just “a commonplace word.” It’s a cultural signal that often carries exclusion, mockery, or fake intimacy. That’s why I’m flagging it.

    As an anarchist, rigid hierarchies and those who create them aren’t to my taste.

    But you are an admin of lemmy.dbzer0.com. That’s a hierarchical role. You set the rules. You decide federation. You sit at the top of the decision-making structure. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that—every admin does it. But it undercuts the idea that I’m somehow authoritarian for being upfront about doing the same thing. Running a server is hierarchy. The difference is whether you acknowledge it or pretend it doesn’t exist.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (10 children)

    But you are an admin of lemmy.dbzer0.com. That’s a hierarchical role. You set the rules. You decide federation. You sit at the top of the decision-making structure. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that—every admin does it. But it undercuts the idea that I’m somehow authoritarian for being upfront about doing the same thing. Running a server is hierarchy. The difference is whether you acknowledge it or pretend it doesn’t exist.

    Our users can vote admins and mods out if they want to. They also vote on any rule changes. That's how a community should function. That's how we do checks and balances to prevent abuse of admin powers, such as enforcing my personal opinions on all our users. I'd last about 1 day if I started doing that. So no, it undercuts nothing, and now you are just trying to score pointless debating points so I'll leave it at that.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    You’re describing elections, not the absence of hierarchy. That may make your server representative, but it doesn’t make it non-hierarchical. Someone still fits the role of admin, someone still has the keys to the machine, and someone can still pull the plug on the entire server at any moment.

    That’s not egalitarianism—that’s hierarchy with window dressing. Elections don’t erase the structure. They just decide who occupies it. And the structure itself carries the same asymmetries: technical control, federation policies, enforcement of rules, the ability to de-federate or delete outright.

    Which is fine—server administration is hierarchical by design. But it undercuts your attempt to paint my stance as authoritarian. I’m upfront about what the role entails: curating and enforcing standards in the space I’m responsible for. You’re doing the same thing, just phrased differently.

    And that flourish about “pointless debating points” is cowardice. You’ve been caught in your own contradiction—preaching anarchism while holding the keys to a server—and rather than face it, you try to wave it away. That’s not an argument. That’s an admission you’ve got nothing left.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

    If I abused my position I would fully expect to be held accountable by one of our other admins. And I've also reversed mod decisions due to user feedback. But in order to do that you've got to be open and responsive to feedback in the first place. But when you are the sole admin there is nobody to keep your ego in check. I still had that [left], I guess.

    Thank you for describing it as a flourish, I liked that part.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    So if you ever abuse your power, you’ll be held accountable… by the other admin.

    The other guy sitting at the top of the hierarchy.

    The same guy who named the whole server after himself.

    Yeah, no hierarchies or egos here. Just pure, uncut anarchism.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    You are making a ton of assumptions based total ignorance of how dbzer0 is operated and governed, even how many admins we have, or of the history of how it ended up under db0's project domain. And it's not my job to educate you, especially because I can tell already that nothing I can say will disabuse you of your self-serving preconceptions.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    It really doesn’t matter how many admins you’ve got or how you divvy up the titles. Lemmy, by design, requires an admin for it to even function. That alone makes it hierarchical.

    Any community can only be what the software allows it to be. And Lemmy hardcodes a structure: admin → mods → lowly “users.” (Isn’t it funny how both the software industry and drug dealers refer to people as “users”?) Your ideals can’t undo the fact that this is a hierarchy baked into the system.

    If you truly believed in the purity of your anarchism, no one would “own” the server. Hell, there wouldn’t even be a server. It would all be peer-to-peer nodes, something closer to Secure Scuttlebutt.

    But instead you’re here, running software built from the ground up for hierarchy. And you’re an admin of it. How very anarchist of you.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Lmao you are the very worst example of a reddit-style debate bro I've ever seen on Lemmy. No wonder everything is going so well for you.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    Thanks, though—our back-and-forth did get me thinking about the feasibility of true peer-to-peer software that offers Reddit-like topical functions.

    Something where there aren’t admins, mods, or “users.” Something anarchist by design, not just by branding.

    Appreciate the inspiration.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    You seem to hold a fundamentally different view of what an admin can/should be. Idk if that's just a consequence of a turbolib brain or what, but it sounds incredibly foreign to me. In my experience on Blahaj and here on DB0, the understanding is that the admins are providing a service for us. Provider, protector, facilitator- these titles don't represent an inherent hierarchy, and neither does administrator

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 child)

    The thing is, all communities on the Internet can only ever be what the system is designed to allow.

    If a platform is built for hierarchy, then it is a hierarchy—regardless of the ideals people bring into it. No amount of goodwill or re-labelling (“provider,” “protector,” “facilitator”) changes the fact that the software has hard-coded roles with asymmetric power.

    And this isn’t some quirky personal view of mine. People far more intelligent than me have been pointing this out for decades. Lawrence Lessig, in Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace (1999), put it bluntly:

    “Code is law. What people can and cannot do in cyberspace is regulated by the software and hardware that make cyberspace what it is.”

    Geert Lovink, in Networks Without a Cause (2011), made the same point about platforms and power:

    ”Design decisions are power decisions. Interfaces, defaults, permissions—they do not merely ‘enable’ interaction, they structure it, and in doing so they impose hierarchies.”

    Helen Nissenbaum, in Values in Design (2005), sharpened it further:

    ”The architectures of systems—their technical frameworks—inevitably embed social and political values. Claims to neutrality obscure the ways in which they establish constraints and privileges.”

    History is full of examples where egalitarian ideals ran headlong into the hard wall of software architecture.

    Wikipedia was envisioned as a flat, peer-produced project—yet its reliance on admin powers and arbitration committees quickly created an entrenched hierarchy of “super-editors.” Reddit’s early culture thrived on openness, but its karma system and centralized admins ultimately entrenched a ranking-and-punishment order that couldn’t be wished away. Even early Usenet communities, which imagined themselves as free-flowing conversations, were shaped by killfiles, moderators, and backbone hierarchies dictated by the protocol itself.

    So when I point out that Lemmy is hierarchical, it’s not some rhetorical trick. It’s simply recognizing that hierarchy is baked into the software.

    You can call admins “facilitators,” you can hold elections, you can promise benevolence—but the structure is still a pyramid, and it will always tilt power toward whoever holds the keys.

    That’s not a matter of interpretation. It’s a matter of design.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    I mean definitely get mine first if this glass palace stuff is what yours is all about, this seems to be a hill you want to die on. Problem is it also seems to have been both painstakingly built and maintained by yourself and no one else.

    Its getting weird dude, let it go (and yes dude is gender neutral)

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    You don't like "Bro-culture". That's a description of a specific sort of gross social movement. You are extending that dislike to a ubiquitous word that only has that connotation when used as a descriptor of "Bro-culture-Bros".

    The word itself and it's common usage have nothing to do with that, it's one of the most commonly used, informal, globally-colloquial expressions in our current era.

    It's like getting mad at the word right cause it's part of right-wing, and people use it all the time to indicate direction which is causing a rise of global fascism. It's not just silly, it's a common reason for you to have an argument with a person.

    It's not an opinion, it's a little loaded argument gun you always have cocked, it's really silly and obvious you just like to argue and this is a pit trap full of sharpened spikes. Grow up.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    That's just one reason. Another reason I don't like "bro" is because it's often used as a diminisher. Chill out, bro. Don’t take it so seriously, bro. It’s shorthand for brushing someone off, trivializing their feelings, or cutting them down while pretending it’s casual. That dynamic doesn’t build respect—it erodes it.

    Also, “bro” creates a sense of fake familiarity. It gets used to imply closeness that isn’t there, as if a single word can override the need for trust or mutual understanding. That kind of assumed intimacy often feels presumptive and even manipulative, especially in spaces where people don’t know each other well.

    So basically there's three solid reasons to not allow bro-talk.

    There's one reason to use the word "bro", which I find perfectly acceptable: if someone is a literal sibling. Otherwise, you don't need it. It shouldn't be in your vocabulary.

    Be that as it may, you may disagree. In which case there's several Lemmy servers in which it's perfectly allowable—but not mine.

    EDIT: And while we're at it, there's two more reasons to avoid bro-talk:

    1. Even if meant positively, it's exclusionary
    2. Assumes gender, magnifying the risk of misgendering
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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    I empathize and agree with a lot of your points. I see where your coming from. I do find a lot of "bro" talk to come across really cringe.

    However, I think you are making an error by banning people for it. If ultimately you're goal is to build communities and have interesting conversations, then banning people for what is socially widely accepted removes the ability to build connections and learn from others from a wide swath of people. You are essentially quarantining yourself and closing yourself off from others by drawing very innocuous lines in the sand. You're limiting your community to only people that are okay with incredibly controlled language and incredibly controlled communities. This diminishes your ability to learn from others, have interesting conversations, and be challenged by new information. A lot of people that might otherwise want to make a connection with you, will find such a strict line so ridiculous they will discount everything else you say because they find you to be so unreasonable.

    Also, not everyone uses bro as a deminisher or even gendered, many people do see themselves as being siblings to everyone, all humans are family and saying "bro" is a way of reminding others that we are all connected. You are ultimately harming yourself more than anyone else.

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