Maybe things can't only get better for Keir Starmer, as he is shamed with the latest polling just as the Labour conference begins

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[–] 39 points 1 year ago (1 child)

He's not unpopular because he's worse than recent Tory leadership, he's unpopular because of how much of a disappointment he's been compared to people's expectations. Mandatory ID is surely going to improve things in that regard...

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    🔴 Starmer – 13% satisfied, 79% dissatisfied 🔵 Liz Truss – 16% satisfied, 67% dissatisfied

    It should be linked with average duration or something cos if the lettuce will have stayed longer she will have been minus

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Less popular than the cabbage?

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    Labour is supposed to help the people they have been actively working against, it's no surprise he's wildly unpopular.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Here's a drinking game if you want to stay sober:

    Take a drink every time you see someone who's working class, at a Labour Party conference.

    They've long time lost their way.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Have they, though?

    • nationalising trains
    • nationalising steel
    • nationalising a part of our energy sector
    • bringing the NHS back under direct public control
    • ending various tax-dodging loopholes, such as the IHT for farmers
    • windfall tax on energy companies
    • charging VAT on private schooling
    • expanding free childcare
    • restarting SureStart (albeit under a different name)
    • expanding free school meals
    • expanding school breakfast clubs
    • guaranteeing jobs for young people (announced this morning)
    • big increases to the minimum wage, especially for the youngest
    • expansion of workers rights
    • expansion of renters rights
    • big increase in infrastructure investment, particularly for renewables

    OSA, fair enough. I'm sure plenty of young people especially aren't happy about that. But overall, how are they actively working against people they're supposed to be helping?

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  • [–] 16 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    The trains were nationalised by the Tory government in 2020, and they also abolished franchising later that year. They also began to set up Great British Railways in 2021. All that’s happening now is the contracts are being withdrawn as they reach their break points.

    Steel has not been nationalised. The government has taken over the funding of redundancy payments and retraining for the shut down private sector Tata furnaces in Port Talbot, and has taken steps to force the owners of British Steel to keep the idle furnaces in Scunthorpe burning.

    There has also been no nationalisation in the energy sector. Great British Energy is set up as a way to subsidise projects created and run by the private sector and other public bodies. It will not generate, distribute or retail energy.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    You need to look up the differences between the Tory rail model and Labour's. It's not the same.

    Steel has not been nationalised. The government has taken over the funding of redundancy payments and retraining for the shut down private sector Tata furnaces in Port Talbot, and has taken steps to force the owners of British Steel to keep the idle furnaces in Scunthorpe burning.

    Which is a good short term move. They can't abruptly nationalise it by force immediately without causing a truss-like market panic. The ball is rolling.

    There has also been no nationalisation in the energy sector.

    Yes it is. GBE is public.

    Great British Energy is set up as a way to subsidise projects created and run by the private sector and other public bodies.

    That's part of the energy sector...

    It will not generate, distribute or retail energy.

    I never said it will...

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  • [–] 17 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Pretty safe to say he's over-hated. Even like colleagues of mine whom I suspect do not follow politics closely refer to him as things like "Kier Stalin".

    Maybe I'm old fashioned but a PM is essentially an admin role -- why do we expect that they be inspirational too.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Pretty sure voters of one party hates leaders of all other parties. But Keir is additionally also hated by voters of his own party, making him lower than everybody.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    Speaking in political compass terms, Stalin was around -5,10.
    Starmer's nearer something like 5,8.
    Other side of the economic scale.
    Maybe if he disregards the will of the people, and institutes the Digital ID, he can get that up to a 5,10.

    Either way, this is not what freedom looks like.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    I call him that because it's funny.

    Ironically all of the laws he was using to crack down on protests and arrest over Facebook posts were put in place by the tories. The Online Safety Act was also from the tories. He's just inherited the tools they gave him

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    Oh c'mon, he's no where near that bad.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 year ago (24 children)

    Absolutely mental.

    Kier is boring, has floated some things that the electorate doesn't like (e.g. taking WFA away from the wealthy), and has done a very poor job highlighting the good that this government is doing, but is he fuck worse than Boris, Truss, or even Sunak.

    People need to get some damn perspective.

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  • [–] 29 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    His supposedly labour government has also doubled down on censoring wikipedia, calling people pedo-sympathizers for resisting absurd internet control laws that literally affect every digital facing international company, and is now promoting a digital ID straight out every digital era authoritatians or fascist's wet dreams.

    Is he better than sunak? Probably? Kinda? That's a very low bar though and the fact that we even talk about it is sad. Their actions have been so much unlike what people think about when voting labour parties that it's surreal.

    People reasonably feel cheated on given the party's supposed focus.

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  • [+] -6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (7 children)

    There's also been:

    • nationalising trains
    • nationalising steel
    • nationalising a part of our energy sector
    • bringing the NHS back under direct public control
    • ending various tax-dodging loopholes, such as the IHT for farmers
    • windfall tax on energy companies
    • charging VAT on private schooling
    • expanding free childcare
    • restarting SureStart (albeit under a different name)
    • expanding free school meals
    • expanding school breakfast clubs
    • guaranteeing jobs for young people (announced this morning)
    • big increases to the minimum wage, especially for the youngest
    • expansion of workers rights
    • expansion of renters rights
    • big increase in infrastructure investment, particularly for renewables

    And a load more.

    No, I'm not a fan of everything, especially not the OSA, but you can't expect to agree with every single action your government takes.

    As for the government ID thing, it's hardly an authoritarian's dream when almost every country on planet Earth does it already. You may not realise it, but we're very much in the minority for not having this already.

    Have a look at that list I rattled off the top of my head and try to tell me they aren't the actions of a Labour party.

    You're letting your judgement be impaired by blindly focussing on a couple of issues you disagree with rather than looking at the whole picture.

    E: absolute clowns ignoring reality. You people would rather have Reform in power than a centre-left party.

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  • [–] 10 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    As for the government ID thing, it's hardly an authoritarian's dream when almost every country on planet Earth does it already. You may not realise it, but we're very much in the minority for not having this already.

    Just have to say, being in the minority for something does not mean it's all of a sudden a good thing and that everyone else must do it.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    That's true. My point is that people acting like it's some awful mega authoritarian thing seems to be forgetting that we are one of 8 countries world wide without a unified government ID.

    Half of the others being overseas territories or island microstates.

    There's a lot of fear mongering going on surrounding these IDs, as if they're not an extremely normal thing.

    Essentially calling 200+ countries fascist, like the above user is doing, is a pretty extreme reaction.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The problem is not the ID cards that other countries have. That would be reasonable, even if one could argue NINO is sufficient.

    The problem is the online/app nature if them which, in conjunction with OSA, makes it dystopian control scenario.

    I'm not ignoring those upsides that you mentioned, I just didn't mention them or wasn't aware. I like most of them for what it matters.

    But I do still consider OSA and digital IDs an authoritarian measures and I do find this to be of high enough importance to potentially overshadow all of the above.

    What's the point of living in a, arguably, more socialist state if your privacy doesn't exist? I'm not a bloody tanky and I don't like that angle, like many others.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Other countries have digital IDs. We are abnormal for not having them.

    You're being whipped into a frenzy over something that is extremely normal.

    Making it out to be fascist is brain-dead. Only an absolute moron of the highest calibre would believe that the UK is one of only 8 non-fascist states in the world.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    The majority of the world considered slavery and women being subservient normal, that didn't make it right.

    You think it's brain dead to reject a digital ID.

    I think it's braindead to sacrifice privacy for the sake of safety, especially when it's so transparent that the goal is control and suppression and not "protecting the children".

    To each his own.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Copying from Ohulancutash:

    The trains were nationalised by the Tory government in 2020, and they also abolished franchising later that year. They also began to set up Great British Railways in 2021. All that’s happening now is the contracts are being withdrawn as they reach their break points.Steel has not been nationalised. The government has taken over the funding of redundancy payments and retraining for the shut down private sector Tata furnaces in Port Talbot, and has taken steps to force the owners of British Steel to keep the idle furnaces in Scunthorpe burning.There has also been no nationalisation in the energy sector. Great British Energy is set up as a way to subsidise projects created and run by the private sector and other public bodies. It will not generate, distribute or retail energy.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Honestly on Sunak, I didnt particularly like him nor his party nor the policies pushed but the guy did give off the impression that he was genuinely trying to improve things and was giving it his all despite his party being a unruly shitshow.

    I get the feeling history will wind up treating him as it did May, a kneecapped PM who did genuinely want to do some good in a political enviroment that didnt exactly allow for it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago

    the guy did give off the impression that he was genuinely trying to improve things and was giving it his all despite his party being a unruly shitshow

    Funny, all I saw was a smug time-server who didn't give a toss about British people who aren't rich.

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  • [–] 21 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    It's the expectation.

    Boris and Truss were abject morons and Sunak was an insulated, rich Tory. They were expected to be terrible and so we weren't surprised.

    Starmer won in a landslide victory for Labour and went about screwing the poor, arresting old ladies, and presiding over genocide. Conservatives hate him because he's on the Red Team, and the Left hate him because he acts like a Tory.

    If he'd run as a Tory, he'd be scoring higher than everyone since Cameron, but he was supposed to fix the mess, not make it worse.

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  • [–] -4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    How has he screwed the poor?

    • nationalising trains
    • nationalising steel
    • nationalising a part of our energy sector
    • bringing the NHS back under direct public control
    • ending various tax-dodging loopholes, such as the IHT for farmers
    • windfall tax on energy companies
    • charging VAT on private schooling
    • expanding free childcare
    • restarting SureStart (albeit under a different name)
    • expanding free school meals
    • expanding school breakfast clubs
    • guaranteeing jobs for young people (announced this morning)
    • big increases to the minimum wage, especially for the youngest
    • expansion of workers rights
    • expansion of renters rights
    • big increase in infrastructure investment, particularly for renewables

    Is any of that screwing the poor?

    arresting old ladies

    I didn't realise that when you're a certain gender or past a certain age the law should no longer apply?

    and presiding over genocide

    Huh? He banned weapons exports to Israel, publicly condemned Israel for war crimes, sanctioned a bunch of members of their parliament, ramped up aid for Palestine, committed to arresting Netanyahu if he ever steps foot on British soil, resisted joining the US and Israel with their attacks in Iran, and has recognised Palestine.

    He can't do much more than that. Would you like him to invade Israel? I don't think that's realistic.

    If he'd run as a Tory, he'd be scoring higher than everyone since Cameron, but he was supposed to fix the mess, not make it worse.

    How is he making things worse?

    E: sure, just downvote when you see some inconvenient facts. You clearly hate all of the bullet points I've just outlined, in which case I'm not sure why you ever supported Labour in the first place. They've been a centre-left party for half a century now.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Huh? He banned weapons exports to Israel, publicly condemned Israel for war crimes, sanctioned a bunch of members of their parliament, ramped up aid for Palestine, committed to arresting Netanyahu if he ever steps foot on British soil, resisted joining the US and Israel with their attacks in Iran, and has recognised Palestine.

    And still has contracts for the Israeli military to train British troops, and still criminalises the expression of support for Palestinian rights. At best, we're seeing some mixed messaging here.

    They’ve been a centre-left party for half a century now.

    Sure, because there's no difference between Labour under Michael Foot or Corbyn and Labour under Blair or Starmer. /s

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago

    FFS, why are you lying? Supporting Palestine is not illegal. The government supports Palestine. Stop the lies.

    The only thing that's illegal is supporting a proscribed violent group.

    Sure, because there's no difference between Labour under Michael Foot or Corbyn and Labour under Blair or Starmer. /s

    Obviously they're different under every leader. They're still centre left and I just proved it to you. You being too stupid to accept it doesn't change reality. Go look at my list again.

    At least he's not a supporter of Putin like Corbyn, and could actually win an election unlike Corbyn.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago

    The trains were nationalised by the Tory government in 2020, and they also abolished franchising later that year. They also began to set up Great British Railways in 2021. All that’s happening now is the contracts are being withdrawn as they reach their break points.Steel has not been nationalised. The government has taken over the funding of redundancy payments and retraining for the shut down private sector Tata furnaces in Port Talbot, and has taken steps to force the owners of British Steel to keep the idle furnaces in Scunthorpe burning.There has also been no nationalisation in the energy sector. Great British Energy is set up as a way to subsidise projects created and run by the private sector and other public bodies. It will not generate, distribute or retail energy.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    Kier is boring

    You'd think he'd at least be a bit more lively, with all that powder up his nose.

    Remember the 107th rule of acquisition: Win or lose, there's always Huyperian Beetle Snuff

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    Boris's policies weren't the worse. He was just absolutely incompetent at actually leading the party/government on a personal level and was prone to slight corruption

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    He had better immigration attitudes than sunak and kier

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Huh? How the fuck did you work that one out? He imported 1 million people per year, most of them non-workers who will need government subsidy their entire lives, mostly from areas of extreme religious fundamentalism.

    Is that what you want?

    And there's a lot more to governance than immigration. This is the man with the "oven ready" Brexit deal, thousands of extra unnecessary covid deaths, rampant corruption, shutting down parliament when they were going to vote against him, etc.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago

    I for one welcome our new racist overlords in 2029... 😞🤢

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  • [–] 8 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    It should be noted that The Canary is still fuming that Corbyn didn't get a third attempt to lose to the Tories.

    I didn't vote for Starmer. I voted for Labour. If he's ineffective, replace him with somebody better equipped to deal with the threat of Reform.

    I live in a shithole town with a migrant hotel, and let me tell you, this place will vote Reform next time. I'm sure sticking them there was cheaper than building proper facilities and hiring an appropriate number of people to process them and handle any needed deportations, but the cost of Reform will dwarf that.

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago

    I am sure purging all the leftists and reformers out of the left Center option was the better strategy, on the backs of openly false allegations at that. /s

    Labor is a fucking joke and it's going to hand England to the far right that will fix themselves into Power with the help of the US and Russia, same as macron is going to hand over france, and Europe is going to fall like fucking Domino's to Fascist governments because we have all allowed conservatives to seize our mainstream political parties and Ratchet privilege to the plutocracy. The only reform option is the far right.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    I still prefer him to the previous administration. He isn't really making things much worse except from the digital ID thing. Isn't making things much better either.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    The Internet Wanking License hasn't been a clear winner either. He voted against that when the Tories were in power, then flipped when they realised they'd be the ones doing all the spying. Wait until Farage gets in and uses that to collect a list of rainbow flag people to bully once he's done with the brown people.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    What do you call making a masterbaitorbase and connecting ip and id and face to every single computer in a place any organized group could access.

    Or cancelling the right to protest, forbidding defenses that acquit accused protesters, calling protesyers terrorists and equating the entire protest with the proscribed group?

    You think things are fine? Jesus christ.

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  • [+] -9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

    I don't really see the issue with digital ID per se. Almost all countries in the world do it. We're very much an outlier for not having one.

    Like seriously, there are ~200 countries with government ID, and only 8 without.

    Are all those 200 countries dystopian shitholes, with the UK (right now) one of the only free states worldwide? That's a wildly nationalist take tbh.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    This seems factually incorrect at multiple levels.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Fun fact: no it's not. You're either poorly informed or lying.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Your confident reiteration (and ad-hominem) make an uncompelling argument.

    A quick ask of the matter with an LLM (Mistral) gave the following answer:

    Here’s a concise breakdown as of October 2025: Total Countries There are 195 sovereign states recognized by the UN (193 member states + Vatican City + Palestine as an observer state). Countries with Digital ID Systems Approximately 140+ countries have implemented or are piloting some form of national digital ID (e.g., India’s Aadhaar, Estonia’s e-Residency, or the EU’s eIDAS framework).

    Fully operational: ~90–100 (e.g., India, Nigeria, Singapore, EU nations). Pilot/partial rollout: ~40–50 (e.g., Brazil, Canada, parts of Africa).

    Countries Without Digital ID Roughly 55–60 countries lack a centralized digital ID system, often due to:

    Infrastructure gaps (e.g., small island nations, conflict zones). Privacy concerns (e.g., Germany, parts of Scandinavia resist mandatory schemes). Early-stage planning (e.g., some Pacific or Caribbean nations).

    Key Trends (2024–2025):

    Africa/Asia: Rapid adoption (e.g., Ghana’s Ghana Card, Philippines’ PhilSys). Europe: EU-wide expansion of eIDAS 2.0 (digital wallets for all citizens by 2026). Americas: Slower uptake (U.S. has state-level initiatives like Mobile Driver’s Licenses; Latin America is mixed).

    Why the range? Definitions vary—some count any government-issued digital credential (e.g., e-passports), while others require biometric-linked systems.

    As of October 2025, there are at least 15–20 countries with all-purpose, mandatory digital ID systems that block access to work, banking, healthcare, or essential services if you refuse or lack enrollment. These systems are biometric-linked, government-enforced, and designed to exclude non-compliant individuals from formal life.

    Strictly Mandatory (No Work/Services Without ID)

    India (Aadhaar) – Blocks bank accounts, SIM cards, welfare, and formal jobs. Nigeria (NIN) – No SIM, passports, or salaries without it. China (Social Credit + Digital ID) – Required for travel, loans, and government jobs. Saudi Arabia (Absher/Tawakkalna) – Needed for employment, subsidies, and legal residency. Kenya (Huduma Namba) – Mandatory for SIMs, taxes, and state services. Pakistan (NADRA Smart CNIC) – No voting, banking, or property transactions. Bangladesh (National ID) – Blocks SIMs, salaries, and welfare. Indonesia (e-KTP) – Required for voting, healthcare, and formal contracts. Philippines (PhilSys) – Increasingly enforced for social benefits and jobs. Egypt (Biometric National ID) – Needed for subsidies and legal transactions. Ethiopia (Fayda) – Blocks SIMs, banking, and public-sector work. Peru (DNI Electrónico) – Mandatory for voting, healthcare, and contracts. Uganda (Ndaga Muntu) – SIM and land transactions frozen without it. Turkey (e-Devlet) – Required for healthcare, banking, and legal processes. Morocco (Carte d’Identité Électronique) – Excludes from formal economy. Tanzania (NIDA) – SIM and voting restrictions for non-compliance. Ghana (Ghana Card) – Blocks SIMs, pensions, and passports. Malaysia (MyKad) – Needed for voting, healthcare, and financial services.

    De Facto Mandatory (Not Legally Forced but Impossible to Function Without)

    Estonia (e-Residency) Singapore (SingPass) Rwanda (Irembo)

    Key Trends

    Africa/Asia lead enforcement (Nigeria, India, Pakistan). Middle East (Saudi Arabia, UAE) ties IDs to residency and employment. Latin America (Peru, Brazil) increasingly links IDs to social programs.

    Notable Exceptions (No Mandatory Digital ID)

    United States: No federal system; state-level REAL ID is required for domestic flights but not all services. Germany/France: Strong privacy laws block mandatory biometric IDs (though EU’s eIDAS 2.0 is pushing digital wallets). Canada/Australia: Pilot projects exist, but no nationwide mandatory scheme (yet). Nordic Countries: Digital IDs (e.g., Sweden’s BankID) are widespread but not legally enforced for all services.

    Controversies & Workarounds

    India: Supreme Court ruled Aadhaar cannot be mandatory for private services (e.g., schools, hospitals), but loopholes remain. Nigeria: Courts temporarily halted SIM-ID linkage in 2021, but enforcement resumed in 2023. China: Rural areas sometimes bypass strict enforcement, but urban centers face full exclusion.

    Why the Push? Governments cite fraud reduction, welfare efficiency, and security, but critics argue it enables mass surveillance and exclusion of marginalized groups (e.g., refugees, the elderly).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (32 children)

    I’m not even British (I’m Canadian) and I don’t like him. Why’d he go after family farmers with aggressive inheritance taxes? That seems like a political dead end. Absolute foolishness.

    Farmers usually have a lot of money invested in capital equipment but their lifestyles are anything but lavish. They live a working class life but get taxed (on inheritance) like millionaires, preventing them from handing down the family farm through generations (and allowing wealthy corporate farming operations to consolidate them).

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  • [–] 12 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    Rich ass farmers paying tax? Not against that in the slightest

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    I prefer farmers being rich ass than bankers honestly. Farmers deserve to be rich, they rarely get a day off.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    If they have that much wealth, they need to be taxed. If you've got knobheads like Clarkson supporting them, you just know they're in the wrong.

    I'm sure the animals would like a day off from being raped too.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)
  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Climate change denial for a start? Of course he walked it back after started to affect him personally, typical conservative really.

    To ask "What's wrong with Clarkson?" you'd have to know nothing about him.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    He isn't really a political figure though? Just a funny car man on the telly.

    I don't get the sectarian american-imported idea of "oh, clarkson is on their side and I disagree with his previous views on climate change, therefore they are in the wrong"

    1000087574

    Guess we have to support Israel now ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    I listed but one example of him being a cockwomble, one you agree with, there are more.

    The "what's wrong with Clarkson" question was answered. It's so easily answerable in fact, one would have to know nothing of the man to ask it.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (2 children)

    Right, because if (guy I don’t like) supports something, I’m obliged to hate it and fight against it!

    This really tells me all I need to know about your politics. You’re not interested in making life better for anyone. You’re filled with bitterness and resentment and you just want to watch the world burn. You don’t see taxes as a tool to bring prosperity to more people. For you, taxes are a weapon to bludgeon your enemies with. Enemies you’ve never met that a man on the television taught you to hate.

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  • [–] -2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    So you support the consolidation of small family farms into large corporate farming operations. Interesting take.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    Huh? You're pro rich people dodging tax?

    Shit loads of multi-millionaires/billionaires were buying farmland as an asset so they didn't have to pay inheritance taxes out on it, too.

    It's absolutely right that Labour started making them pay tax again (yes, again, they used to do it and family farms still thrived back before Thatcher gave a Tory-voting demographic a tax exception)

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    No, I’m pro-actual-farmer keeping their family farm in the family. People dodging taxes need to be taxed but catching real farmers in the crossfire is not good. It’s very bad.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    We had the more family run farms when we had the inheritance tax on them.

    Evidence:

    In England, farms under 100 hectares have halved in number in the last 60 years, and the number of small holdings has also plummeted from around 160,000 in 1950 to less than 30,000 (2020 figure

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  • [–] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (10 children)

    What a strange take. I definitely think that we should support farmers, but not by exempting them from inheritance taxes. We should incentivise the correct things - If they work the land give them subsidies.

    If you don't tax inheritance you're creating a generational wealth hoarding. Let's take Jeremy Clarkson for example - he openly stated that the reason he bought farmland was so that his children can inherit it tax free. If he didn't have a farming tv show, he would lease that land to actual farmers.

    It might be different in other parts of the world, but in the UK, that has relatively high population density, sitting on farm land for generations can be very very lucrative. Most of the richest pieces of real estate in this country were farmland a century or two ago.

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  • [–] -1 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    My parents sold the farm, I think, largely, on accountant's advice, to avoid the inheritance tax, or something.

    So now I don't have the farm I grew up presuming was to be mine (or other relatives') one day, and instead see it get eaten up in consolidation by the rich, like all the other small farms around, merging.

    This is not good.

    Yay for sensible subsidies. Nay for tax ploys to feed agribusiness monopolies.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (8 children)

    Sorry that your parents had to sell, but it sounds like you're blaming the wrong people.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    If the inheritance taxes are the reason his parents had to sell then it stands to reason that the people who introduced the inheritance taxes in parliament are to blame, no?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    I don't see how inheritance tax is to blame. You'd pay less on inheritance tax than paying income/capital gains tax on selling your land. I suspect other reasons were at play.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Inheritance taxes for real farmers (as opposed to people who just buy farmland to live in the country) are much higher because they include capital expenditures. Modern tractors, harvesters, ploughs, seed drills, sprayers, barns, equipment sheds, silos, fences, irrigation systems… all of this can add up to millions of pounds. Having to suddenly pay a large inheritance tax for a cash-strapped (high leverage) working farmer because their parent died could absolutely force the sale of everything.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    How is that different from any other family that inherits a business? The nominal amount might be different, but it's the same situation. If they can't afford to keep it, they need to sell - it's a frustrating situation for everyone, I don't see why farmers need to be special. As I said before, to protect society from wealth hoarding, inheritance tax is a necessity and should be properly enforced.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

    Because farming is notoriously capital-intensive (the equipment costs millions of dollars) and low margin (the supplies you put into each year’s crop cost a fortune as well and the price you can sell your crop for is highly sensitive to supply and demand; have you ever noticed how food at the market goes on sale for extremely low prices? That was a huge crop that came to market from many farmers at once, for very low profit). This means a farmer has very little liquidity because most of their wealth is tied up on equipment and seeds and fertilizers and everything else. On top of that, there’s a huge element of climate and weather risk where an entire year’s profits can be wiped out by a few days (or sometimes a single day) of bad weather at the wrong time. Many farmers go out of business after one bad crop causes a huge loss and they can no longer afford to buy more seeds or they miss a payment on their tractor or their mortgage or whatever.

    Compare with something like the restaurant business where the equipment is vastly cheaper (hundred dollar frying pan vs million dollar harvester) and so are the supplies (hundreds of dollars worth of food vs tens of thousands worth of seeds and chemicals). Restaurants are also much shorter in turnaround, as you’re generally aiming to sell out all your food the same day it arrives, whereas a farmer is waiting for their crop to grow all summer long.

    And it’s really not wealth hoarding. The capital equipment (tractors, harvesters etc) costs a ton of money but depreciates in value rapidly over time and costs huge amounts in maintenance as well. Furthermore, the maintenance element for equipment can add another risk factor to your crops, as an equipment failure at the wrong time can result in a total crop loss if you’re not able to get it fixed right away.

    That harvester can be sitting in the shed all year in perfectly working condition and then break down 2 minutes into harvesting this year’s crop. Unfortunately, all the other farmers are harvesting at the same time and so the harvester mechanics are overloaded with work and can’t get to yours in time to save the crop. Too bad!

    Anyway, the other reason farming is different than other businesses is because farming produces the food supply that feeds everyone. Governments are acutely aware of the importance of food security and so they provide subsidies and other support programs for farmers. However, these programs can often be a double edged sword because they make it even harder or more capital intensive to get into the business (for example, by requiring new farmers to purchase quota to be allowed access to the market).

    Lastly, I should point out that none of these issues matter if you’re just a rich person who wants to retire to the countryside. You can buy agricultural land cheap (far cheaper than land in the city) and you don’t need to buy any fancy equipment or quota, you just move into the farmhouse. When you pass on your inheritance to your children, the lack of capital equipment means they pay a lot less in taxes than a farmer would.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    You clearly are invested in this issue, but your are missing the point.

    You might not be aware of other industries, but it's a very similar situation in most essential businesses - high equipment costs and low margins.

    I would still argue that family members who inherit a business are in a better position then, for example, a 20 year old waiter who inherits their mom's house in London. They also need to pay taxes that they can't afford.

    Anyways... No one is saying that farmers or any essential businesses shouldn't get support. It's just that inheritance tax exemption is the wrong one, because if you create a loophole the rich will exploit it.

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  • The rich aren’t paying the inheritance tax because they don’t own farming capital, just a homestead on cheap land. This is an inefficient tax if it’s meant to target the rich. It’s catching family farmers (working class people) in the crossfire and driving the process of farm consolidation (corporations that own many farms and don’t pay inheritance taxes because corporations never die).

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago* (1 child)

    Farmers usually have a lot of money invested in capital equipment but their lifestyles are anything but lavish.

    They often hide it, but the farmers I know are far from poor. Like a lot of us, they're rich in illiquid assets but not in terms of cashflow. That's my situation too, though I'm not a farmer, and I don't whinge about it.

    Inheritance tax is a tax on unearned wealth. There's no reason to distinguish one asset from all others. Those inheriting almost invariably did nothing to earn it; it's almost always an accident of birth that puts them in line for an inheritance. That, and the whims of some elderly person. A steeply progressive inheritance tax, with no exceptions besides spouses, would be ideal. And if you're concerned about corporations grabbing all the arable land, regulate them to prevent any firm directly or indirectly owning more than, say, 10 hectares of land. A similar rule should apply to housing.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

    Providing for one’s own children, passing on family traditions and ways of working, preserving the spaces where childhood memories are created; these are among the most fundamental of human desires. Take those away and your society gives way to nihilism. You make an enemy of every parent in the country.

    On the other hand, a strong society understands this at a cultural level and the preservation of family traditions is deeply rooted in the society. This is where you get family farms, family restaurants, family workshops and small businesses that last for hundreds of years and produce some of the best products life has to offer. Japan, France, Italy, and Spain are some examples of countries where this is the case.

    As for arbitrary restrictions on corporations: ad-hoc solutions like that rarely work. People find ways of circumventing and undermining such efforts. Instead of one corporation, people will have hundreds, each with its 10 hectares of land.

    The more regulations you create, the more you reward people with the money to hire accountants and lawyers to navigate them. On the other hand, traditional farmers and other small family businesses will simply give up trying to navigate the red tape and bail out.

    If you want to tax unearned wealth, you should implement land value tax which taxes the increase in value of a piece of land, not inheritance. A child who grows up on a farm and helps with all of the farm tasks their parents do every day has earned their inheritance. A suburbanite who has watched their house go from $200k to $2m in 20 years has not.

    If I’m a parent in the twilight of my life and I own a big farm or a factory or some other productive asset and I’m facing steep inheritance taxes do you think I’m going to just accept them? No. I’d rather sell off all the equipment, burn the factory to the ground, treat the family to lavish vacations and parties for the rest of my life, and have them inherit nothing. If there’s no future to plan for, then live like there’s no future.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago

    How are you enjoying Mark Carney? The Governor of the Bank of England during (what I call) "a very British genocide", (or what others call) "the fit-to-work scandal", culling >130,000 of the disabled and poor in a decade. Seems to love being appointed, but could he be elected fairly? Carney, Starmer, same "big club". They do these things to seize power, to maximally extract wealth, and to soft-kill. Because they were told to.

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